Working with another writer

[Casey H]

A lot of good points made... Chits- you brought up something that is not just about co-writing, but writing in general. Most of us are resistant to changing something we've become "married to"... Once a writer has been singing a line in their head, it's so hard for them to hear it any other way. This hampers me a lot when I have an older song with good music & and lyrics that don't make it commercially. I just am too married to what I've been singing for so long. You'll find this is a problem for many of us when we get critiques that suggest changes/re-writes. We sort of lock up... Casey

[jchitty]

Jun 12, 2008, 12:44pm, hurowitz wrote:A lot of good points made... Chits- you brought up something that is not just about co-writing, but writing in general. Most of us are resistant to changing something we've become "married to"... Once a writer has been singing a line in their head, it's so hard for them to hear it any other way. This hampers me a lot when I have an older song with good music & and lyrics that don't make it commercially. I just am too married to what I've been singing for so long. You'll find this is a problem for many of us when we get critiques that suggest changes/re-writes. We sort of lock up... CaseyVery true....when a song gets in your head the way you originally created it, it becomes very difficult to rewrite it.Squids and I had a bit of a roadblock with 'Burbs. She wanted me to change the verses, "she's lost her way, and she's lost her balance, except the one on her credit card' and incorporate those lines into the chorus. I didn't think I could do it, it was just so hard for me. She knew I wasn't being resistent because I loved the words they way they were....she just knew I might not be able to think of anything. But Squids has a good way of challenging me (she knows this, hehe) and I got off the phone with her shortly thereafter, and I ended up making that 'credit card' line part of the chorus and delivered Squids a few lines she liked even more. I dunno, maybe I just got lucky. Plus, we got some good chemistry together. Plus, it helps to know that eventually a co-writer will be fairly satisfied with what you send them....if you've got someone really picky, it will produce fruitless results after a while.

[sgs4u]

I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying Squids. Such is my lot. Whenever I post, I seem to be preconceived as confrontational. I don't like the conflict part either, or especially hanging on to things the way they exist, simply because that's the way it was written. I enjoy people who are willing to discuss/argue their points, or why a thing is written a certain way. To me that's the exchange of feelings that help me uncover the satisfaction and advantages of co-writing. The feeling of being stuck, because someone is unwilling to envision a new creation (the result of what happens when 2 minds cooperate), is what I was referring to. When someone writes a lyric, it isn't a song to me. Nada. Not until there's a melody, and even then, without the whole production thing being complete, there's very little to either sell or promote. Maybe I'm so different that I need to start looking at that a lot more...Jun 12, 2008, 12:04pm, squids wrote:Well, I can see that. You've got a confrontational style and that's an interest point, isn't it? Each of us has a different style and that's a part of the equation as well. If someone's loathe to be confrontational in order to work with you, it'll make them miserable and you too. Right?I dislike conflict in the rewriting part because the creative process to me is already full of conflict.....within ourselves, out into the world using our hands, our software, etc. Why clutter it with more verbal confrontation? But I can see how that would work for lots.Interesting that we're collab'ing on something, lol. We don't email much which I know means you're really reining it in for me. I appreciate that a lot. Jes waitin' on either you or Bill to tell me whazzup.

[sgs4u]

I had to look that up. Thought you were being confrontatonal at first! Jun 12, 2008, 12:59pm, milfus wrote:nah steve, you pretty much just doppleganged my view =0)

[squids]

Jun 12, 2008, 12:58pm, sgs4u wrote:I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying Squids. Such is my lot. Whenever I post, I seem to be preconceived as confrontational. I don't like the conflict part either, or especially hanging on to things the way they exist, simply because that's the way it was written. I enjoy people who are willing to discuss/argue their points, or why a thing is written a certain way. To me that's the exchange of feelings that help me uncover the satisfaction and advantages of co-writing. The feeling of being stuck, because someone is unwilling to envision a new creation (the result of what happens when 2 minds cooperate), is what I was referring to. When someone writes a lyric, it isn't a song to me. Nada. Not until there's a melody, and even then, without the whole production thing being complete, there's very little to either sell or promote. Maybe I'm so different that I need to start looking at that a lot more...Nope, it was my mistake, Steve. I see you as being honest and forthright, which can sometimes be considered blunt (and has on these boards from time to time). That isn't against my grain or really all that different from me, we use different styles is all. I get my stuff through honey, you get yours through very direct communication. I can do that too, it's jes not the cultural background I came from. I understand what you're saying about wanting to get un-stuck in a song. Personally, if I look at someone's lyric and I see somethin', I always ask if they've got a vision with it. I've learned that it's easier to influence them than to confront them if they're stuck. That's jes the way I work. It ain't everyone's way and I can see how it would seem like more work to do it the way I've learned. Your way is short, to the point, in some ways more professional in that it saves time/energy/expense. But there's a risk involved too if you've got someone who can't hear any changes but isn't willing to let go of a wasted vision that isn't going anywhere. If you're confrontational and can't get them to budge on the first shot, then it's pretty much over. The way I work is that over time, they'll consider other options without feeling forced. This way I still get to keep the lyrics I want, I jes don't always get them in the time frame I want. So I'm sorry for misunderstanding you. Or rather, stating my point badly.

[Casey H]

I know for me, the hardest part is letting go of my control freak nature. I'm sure I'm not the only one like that. (C'mon all you closet control freaks, just admit it!!)I have some successful co-writes but I have to say that they worked because one of us was the "control" person for that song-- i.e. I gave someone what I had and said, "do something with this" or vice-versa. And Chits you are right about the "too picky" thing... But it's hard to discriminate sometimes between the best application of the craft and just being difficult. We all have had our work inspected, dissected, rejected, etc and it spins our heads at times. Obviously, there is a point where it is "good enough". It also is an art to know the difference between something not being the way YOU might approach it and not being good. Not always easy...Another thing to look for in a co-writer is someone who will follow through on the commitment. Sometimes (though no bad intention) we all take on too much, say we want to work on something, but never get around to it. I know I've done that. (I've learned to just say no)... Casey

[liamkelly]

Jun 12, 2008, 1:44pm, hurowitz wrote:I know for me, the hardest part is letting go of my control freak nature. I'm sure I'm not the only one like that. You and me both, Case

[jchitty]

To tell you the truth, I wish I could get everyone of my songs to turn out EXACTLY like what is in my head. Joni Mitchell once said that she tried to do that, but it was very hard. Because people have different experiences in life and different mindsets, it's so hard to get co-writers to do your songs exactly the way you want them unless you're a performing songwriter. Co-writers can't 'hear' what you're hearing, but they can come pretty close sometimes. I can understand the striving for the absolute most excellent result you can possibly achieve. I don't like to just settle for something, but I'm also aware that I'll never get the song I have in my mind (which is fairly brilliant hehe with huge symphony orchestras in the background) so I just try to get the best collab I can.Wouldn't it be cool if we were all Samantha Stevens on the old "Bewitched" show? We could just wiggle our noses, and viola, we have a beautifully finished demo, just the way we want it. Okay, I'm off to dinner folks! This thread has been very interesting!

[Mark Kaufman]

Songwriting collaboration is another form of marriage. It has better odds of working than being in a band, which is a multiple marriage. And being alone can be lonely...even if you CAN throw your laundry wherever you see fit.But marriage it is, and so we must communicate, we must think as a unit...to do this, we have to care about the other person. If you don't...then why do it? Just for your own purposes?Which reminds me...when someone tells me to change my part, it's an insulting imposition...and when they won't change their part, they're being stupid, stubborn and lazy.

[Casey H]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:03pm, jchitty wrote:Wouldn't it be cool if we were all Samantha Stevens on the old "Bewitched" show? We could just wiggle our noses, and viola, we have a beautifully finished demo, just the way we want it. How come on TV in the 60's, guys were married to drop-dead beautiful women who could do anything for them and they never... well... took advantage of it... In fact they outright demanded no magic... C'mon now... if you were a guy and Barbara Eden could 'blink' you per any wish you had?? And did you ever get a look at the guy's wife on "Mister Ed"? He's got her and he's in the barn with the horse all the time?? It boggles the mind... Casey