Working with another writer

[liamkelly]

Jun 12, 2008, 3:38pm, aubreyz wrote:Jun 12, 2008, 2:49pm, liamkelly wrote:Milf No argument here, per se I was trying to make the point (maybe poorly) that in songwriting collabs where one is ostensibly a lyricist and one a musician (given, there may be an overlap... even a significant one sometimes) it is probably handy to give in a bit more to the other's expertise.Granted, each should have some say on the other... but, in my very limited experience , partnerships more often break up because they don't fully understand the skills the other brings to the party than for any other reason.A genuine 2c RespectLiamLiam,That's a good point, but I also think that it can come down to respecting the other's opinion. Even if one has more skill in an area than another, both should know when something works or not. There's a producer I know who does mostly tv spots, he knows little about audio or music. There have been times when I thought I nailed it and he couldn't quite put into words why he didn't think it worked, but i respect him enough to keep trying until it does. Unfortunately he doesn't give me that same respect, it's either his way or no way-- so I wouldn't be working with him at all unless he's paying the bills AubAubGood reply And it, in fact, endorses exactly what I am trying to say. Because it's all about respect. Something that the producer, you're referring to, didn't have. If he'd had more respect for what you were bringing to the table, then you wouldn't've had a problem.And respect for each other's skills (in other words, identifying what the other party's better at... and giving in A BIT to it) is exactly my point.Liam

[liamkelly]

Jun 12, 2008, 3:50pm, milfus wrote:oh sorry liam, MilfusSorrys totally not needed. I always enjoy your posts I'm off to bed...later...Liam

[devin]

This thread is on freakin' fire! I last posted only 12 hours ago, and it's taken half an hour to read the 3 pages that have been put up since then (and I've read every word, because it's worth it)Wow gang...what a collaboration we got goin' here. If we went back through, and drew out the top 10 things we can all agree on, we'd have ourselves a song. Thanks to all the great folk who keep posting....it feels like I'm "working up" every time I stop by this forum...and of course I want to comment on every great point that you've been making...but I'll just shut up and listen instead. Go Dots Go [opens beer]

[Casey H]

Jun 12, 2008, 4:59pm, devin wrote:This thread is on freakin' fire! I last posted only 12 hours ago, and it's taken half an hour to read the 3 pages that have been put up since then (and I've read every word, because it's worth it)Wow gang...what a collaboration we got goin' here. If we went back through, and drew out the top 10 things we can all agree on, we'd have ourselves a song. Thanks to all the great folk who keep posting....it feels like I'm "working up" every time I stop by this forum...and of course I want to comment on every great point that you've been making...but I'll just shut up and listen instead. Go Dots Go [opens beer]Wow, just think if we had spent as much time working on songs!!

[hummingbird]

Jun 12, 2008, 5:39pm, milfus wrote:ive been working on songs this whole time =0)me too. now we can post a "what I did while participating the 'working with another writer thread' thread

[hummingbird]

Jun 12, 2008, 3:27pm, aubreyz wrote:and btw--- that's why I like hanging around with the likes of you Vikki. You have placements... I don't. I'm looking from down here up to your level thinking... hmmm... now how does she do that AubI did that in many ways, including listening to a lot of feedback given on this board to my & other tunes. I wrote and rewrote and submitted and resubmitted til I cracked the code. 2.5 years of returns from Taxi before I got my first forward, which lead to my first deal.I also did it by having the priviledge of working with people who were/are more experienced than me. They could say "well, she's not at my level, and I only want to write "up"". But they don't. They give me a helping hand and treat my contributions with respect and, by just being themselves and doing what they do well & sharing it with me, they help me move "up".If you want me to try to give you the roadmap for success, I'd say: 1) craft/composition (writing the actual music), 2) tools (system, mics, software, excellent quality sounds), 3) manipulating sound/VIs to sound 'authentic', 4) mixing/producing to broadcast quality, 5) as we so often say, write, submit, write, submit, 6) listening to mentors, listening to music samples, being open to change & growth; and I think, given the title of this thread, 7) working with interesting & inspiring collaborators who are fun and spark ideas. There might be more, but that's what comes to me at this moment in time.

[squids]

Jun 12, 2008, 6:07pm, hummingbird wrote: I also did it by having the priviledge of working with people who were/are more experienced than me. They could say "well, she's not at my level, and I only want to write "up"". But they don't. They give me a helping hand and treat my contributions with respect and, by just being themselves and doing what they do well & sharing it with me, they help me move "up".A good many writers I consider more experienced and with more placements than me will write with someone who has less of both. It's not mentoring in the truest sense; they hear something good in the work that sparks something in them, as you said up above, something that they want to hear developed. To me, mentoring is what Aub mentioned - really jes giving advice, helping them avoid pitfalls in writing, producing, etc, using private PMs or emails, public posts that support, herd them along at a faster pace than they'd normally go without the advice. But not writing songs together. I think it was Aretha Franklin or Lena Horne (or someone like that) who once said, "always make sure you work with someone who challenges you. Never put your name on shoddy work. Never. Our reputation is all we have." And it really stuck with me. I practice that always. There's a risk involved if you don't. So if someone wants to work with, say, Dave Walton or mazz or matto or even Hans Zimmer, I would guess that's more likely to happen if they've worked their tail off and improved their skills enough to reach these guys' radar. These great guys probably don't have a lotta time to shepherd someone along in a song. I don't think I'd even have the nerve to ask them to work with me, but that's jes me. I don't know their personal philosophy regarding mentoring but I'm guessin' if whoever it is doesn't have something to inspire them and it's a mercy thing, they probably wouldn't do it. I'm jes guessin though! I think inspiration is the key and then can they produce? I mean, if they're the ones doing the music, is it of good quality? Have they put the time in to make those strings sound real? If they're a lyricist, are the lyrics in need of major rewrites in order to be acceptable or are they all finished up or close to it, and are they willing to be flexible?This keeps the bar high, imho. Keeps those less experienced coming back for advice about honing their skills and keeps them focused on their goals so they can reach for cowriters they want to work with in the future when their chops are where they can inspire someone better than they are.I bet that didn't make sense. Neva mind!

[squids]

Jun 13, 2008, 5:33am, billg wrote:I have a writing partner that I've worked with for over 25yrs. We argue & fight so much that we joke about our efforts being a clobberation. He's the only co-writer I'll fight with, only because we've taken so long to develop that kind of relationship. I just have this "life is too short" thing going on to really care too much about fighting about song parts, lyrics, or whatever. If you co-write with someone & it goes smooth & something comes out of it that you both like, well cool, do it again. If on the other hand there is too much stress or too many problems, finish the project, forget about it, & move on. I think I'm lazy.oh, honey, I'm so there with you, it's like we're twins!! II don't mind discussion and q/a but there's only so much time in the world and I don't wanna spend it having endless conversations or arguments about a song. Easier to jes move on and chock it up to experience.

[devin]

Having read what we've posted, I'd now have to summarize rule #1 for me as:If I'm going to invest the time and patience to make the collaboration work, I have to respect the other person's contribution. This would mean that they are stronger in at least one aspect than I am (melody, production, playing chops, enthusiasm, etc), so I feel like I'm "working up" when they take the lead (or when they "fill in the blanks" if I'm the control sort). Simultaneously though, I also have to feel like I'm bringing something significant to the table to feel like I'm contributing, or else I may run the risk of feeling outclassed or a charity project.It's very doubtful I would ask or accept a collab with someone who is noticeably better or worse than I in all apects of the song creation process...that would just be too lopsided an arrangement to call it a collab.If I were paying for help, then I'd expect the hired gun to be noticeably better than I for whatever skill I'm paying for...obviously.

[che]

hmmmmmmmm.... have been reading in and out of this post for days. Hadn't really thought it through before, but figured' I throw my hat in for a minute.I ALWAYS write with others, but that is just because I am better at manipualting what is trying to be said rather than coming up with it. I don't sit down and write a song from start to finish. Maybe oneday I will be there. I just stumbled upon writing because my husband is a writer and so are his friends. While sitting around with them I found myself offering input on how else they could say that line etc... They will also give a piece to me for edits or a rewrite. But, many times we just sit around and bounce off each other until we like the line. I understand that our situation is far from the norm (from what I've read here). Every once and a while we will have a blowup, but usually we work well together with minimal arguements. Well, minimal for us Everyone is so passionate that we have daily "disagreements" but no one takes anything personal. It would be real interesting to write with someone we do not know. I wonder if I would feel stiffled. I think I would be a bit hesitant to just blurt things out like I do now. I know that what I come up with might not be gold, but someone else might be able to bounce off it, and get us to where we're trying to get to.Oh well........ if I keep at this long enough I'm sure I will end up writing with people outside my inner circle. For now familiarity is comforting.