Mixed messages

[clonsberry]

You know, I have to say that one of the biggest problems I'm running into as a newbie is the mixed messages of how to write a good song. It's almost like everyone has their own "religion". I read the books about how I should be writing.. both thematically and structurally but when I listen to the radio and try to recognize "the formats", I find that a lot of the music on the radio doesn't follow those formats. So... how'd they get on the radio again?? Did someone not tell them you can't write a song that way?I picked up Otis Redding' s Greatest Hits. Greatest Hits. Huh.. some of those greatest songs don't fit "the format".Let's talk about being "current". My 15 year old daughter loves Sam Cooke and The Beatles. Sure, she loves Rhianna too but, apparently, no one told her that songs have to be current to be good. An example that I always use is that I never would have listened to Joss Stone if it wasn't for The Soul Sessions CD. I was drawn to Lindsay Pagano's Everything U Are, because it reminded me of Frida Payne's Band Of Gold. How did these songs ever get recorded? Whoever gave a 'go' to these songs should've read more books.Of course, there are people you run across that you can discount pretty quickly like an "expert" that says things like.. "Write about romance. Music publishers rarely accept any other type... If you're going to write Christian, make direct references to Jesus or God."That kind of dies a quick death with a brief glance at the Taxi listings and most of the stuff on the radio. Such a quick death that I'm not even going to respond. "Thanks for your time. Next." But it just goes to show that everyone has something to say and most of them claim to know what their talking about. Few of them agree.It's not a Taxi issue. As I've said before, Taxi is just servicing their customers.. both the listers and the writers. And I love Taxi. The issue is with some fundamental ideas about how to write a great song or even what a great song looks like. and, once you have that great song, what do you do with it? Cause from what I've seen, Taxi may not be the vehicle that gets it anywhere.

[allends]

Quote:You know, I have to say that one of the biggest problems I'm running into as a newbie is the mixed messages of how to write a good song. It's almost like everyone has their own "religion". I read the books about how I should be writing.. both thematically and structurally but when I listen to the radio and try to recognize "the formats", I find that a lot of the music on the radio doesn't follow those formats. So... how'd they get on the radio again?? Did someone not tell them you can't write a song that way?Hi Chris,What a great post! For sure, I'm not the right guy to respond fully to your topic, but I might be able to give you a partial answer in the form of another question: When you say that you hear a lot of radio music that bucks the rules are you able to distinguish between A) those songs written and performed by the same artist, versus B) songs that were written for others to perform?According to Jason Blume, there's a big difference between the two. Also, I think JB removes urban and other dance genre's from his discussion of effective song structure.Thanks for posting this topic. I'll be very interested to read other replies! -Allen

[justinatrecording]

Hey Chris,Great post... This is good stuff to be considering.I think about song structures as tools. A very common song structure in popular music is verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus, obviously. And there are many simple ways to alter that. Omit the bridge. Have a double chorus. Have a prechorus. Etc.The interesting thing, however, is that the majority of newbie songwriters don't follow this form, or any variation of it! You often hear songs with no real chorus, and it just sort of goes on and on. Is that wrong? No, of course not! But all songwriting has had proven structures for all of time. And all of those books you read try to get across the basic rules to the reader. As with all art, you need to be able to follow the rules before you can break them.Look at classical music, which has sonata-allegro form, kind of a verse-chorus-bridge idea, along with other things like minuet and trio, AABA, etc. The great composers almost always used these forms, or variations on them. Same thing with jazz.Anyway, with art it's never wrong to break the rules. The problem often lies with the fact that people don't learn how to follow the rules before breaking them. It's great you're spending time listening to radio, trying to recognize "the formats". But really, most things aren't that far from the basics. You mentioned Rhianna. That song Umbrella is an AMAZING song. At it's core, it's V-C-V-C-B-C.But look at some of the "rules" they broke. There's a 38 second long intro (with Jay-Z). Long intros? Big no-no most of the time, right? They don't get to the first chorus until 1:00. Barely acceptable for most pop. You should try to get there sooner, usually. And there's the long chunk in the second half of each chorus that she works the "eh, eh, ella, ella" hook. Then, look how long it is... 4:16!So what makes this song work, and a massive hit? I think it has great imagery, strong metaphors, universal appeal/subject, great melody, cool chords and TONS of hooks. My long winded point is that as art, anything is fair game in songwriting. If you learn the basics, however, they will help guide you when you stray further from the norm. And that, I think, is why you're seeing this disparity between what the "experts" say and all of the great music that's actually out there. So, that's my take on it, for what it's worth...Cheers,Justin

[johnnydean1]

Quote:Hey Chris,Great post... This is good stuff to be considering.I think about song structures as tools. A very common song structure in popular music is verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus, obviously. And there are many simple ways to alter that. Omit the bridge. Have a double chorus. Have a prechorus. Etc.The interesting thing, however, is that the majority of newbie songwriters don't follow this form, or any variation of it! You often hear songs with no real chorus, and it just sort of goes on and on. Is that wrong? No, of course not! But all songwriting has had proven structures for all of time. And all of those books you read try to get across the basic rules to the reader. As with all art, you need to be able to follow the rules before you can break them.Look at classical music, which has sonata-allegro form, kind of a verse-chorus-bridge idea, along with other things like minuet and trio, AABA, etc. The great composers almost always used these forms, or variations on them. Same thing with jazz.Anyway, with art it's never wrong to break the rules. The problem often lies with the fact that people don't learn how to follow the rules before breaking them. It's great you're spending time listening to radio, trying to recognize "the formats". But really, most things aren't that far from the basics. You mentioned Rhianna. That song Umbrella is an AMAZING song. At it's core, it's V-C-V-C-B-C.But look at some of the "rules" they broke. There's a 38 second long intro (with Jay-Z). Long intros? Big no-no most of the time, right? They don't get to the first chorus until 1:00. Barely acceptable for most pop. You should try to get there sooner, usually. And there's the long chunk in the second half of each chorus that she works the "eh, eh, ella, ella" hook. Then, look how long it is... 4:16!So what makes this song work, and a massive hit? I think it has great imagery, strong metaphors, universal appeal/subject, great melody, cool chords and TONS of hooks. My long winded point is that as art, anything is fair game in songwriting. If you learn the basics, however, they will help guide you when you stray further from the norm. And that, I think, is why you're seeing this disparity between what the "experts" say and all of the great music that's actually out there. So, that's my take on it, for what it's worth...Cheers,JustinIt's worth nothing because you haven't written a hit song!!!or have you????My preferred song form isABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZA.

[allends]

Quote:Quote:So, that's my take on it, for what it's worth...Cheers,JustinIt's worth nothing because you haven't written a hit song!!!or have you????My preferred song form isABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZA.Thanks johnnydean1,You just answered my question about the song structure of "What Goes Around" by Justin Timberlake. -Allen

[horacejesse]

Some pieces of music want to come out irregular. That helps keep music interesting. Almost every hit song breaks some rule or other, I would be willing to bet.I think it is better to know the so-called rules than not to know them. Hemingway even thought that if you were going to write about fishing, for instance, you should learn even the minutia of the sport that will never appear directly in the work, that this extra knowledge will indeed flow over into the work without ever being mentioned specifically, and make for greater realism.I am pouring everything have into a song right now that I believe in strongly. It's structure is VVCVVCVVC. Fortunately, it has short verses and a long chorus. If people who count think it is good enough, its slightly oddball structure will not matter.So I hope, and so we all hope. For the catalogues of everyone of us could provide numerous examples of songs that defy the rules either a lot or a little. I

[johnnydean1]

Quote:Quote:It's worth nothing because you haven't written a hit song!!!or have you????My preferred song form isABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZA.Thanks johnnydean1,You just answered my question about the song structure of "What Goes Around" by Justin Timberlake. -AllenYour right about Timberlegs comps but I never get past the A to see how he gets back to it. Have a Karma for taking my comment in the spirit it was intended and feel free to have a pop everybody else does.

[dgolding]

I guess a lot depends on your situation and who you are writing for. If you are already sucessful, and making money for your record company, then you may enjoy the luxury of writing what pleases you. As long as it sells records, everyone is happy. A lot of us are not in that position. We are writing to please other people in a competitive arena. The client lays down the specification, and we try to meet it. It's usually not a position where a lot of experimentation can be used if we want to get the job. Just my opinion.

[rick]

When people talk about writers that don't follow the rules some of the first writers they bring up are The Beatles.But they were form writers.In todays music three song forms are currently in usethe AAA,the AABA,and the most widely used is the ABABCB.The Beatles FOR THE BENEFIT OF MR. KITE is an example of the AAA.Yesterday is an example of the AABA.I AM THE WALRUS is an example of the ABABCB.If one is not familiar with all of these forms they would not recognize them.I grew up on the Beatles and until I studied songwriting craft I never knew this.As I became familiar with the various song forms it became fun to set and listen and pick them out.The same with other artists I listened to.Of course The Beatles stretched music and broke some rules but all within the context of song format.I've been pitching music for 20 years and the TAXI crew understand all the elements of songwriting as well as anyone I've worked with.For me it boils down to who can write the most creative lyrics and melody using a verse,chorus,and bridge.Unfortunately I'm still chasing The Beatles.

[clonsberry]

Hmm.. some great viewpoints on the thing. And I'm not really pushing anything I think is a right or wrong approach other than that I think there is value in songs/music that may not fall within the formulas. (well.. unless, apparently, you're Justin Timberlake). Nor do I discount at all the notion that the customer sets the requirement. One thing I determined going into this is that I wasn't going to be the stubborn, tortured artist. Customer wants sumo ballet, I'm crankin' them out. I can be bought, yessir. And be happy about it. My questions are more philosophical than commercial. (and I was really curious to see what other people thought)I guess if you take other song forms into account, there's probably not as much "violation" as there seems. Like I said, I'm just starting to look at it for real. Haven't covered the chapter on VVCVVCVVC yet I can see the value in learning the forms whether you choose to follow them or not. Although, I think once start looking at song structures that way, I'll tend to do it by default. And breaking the rules will be the anomaly. I'm starting to see it already.I thought about the difference between an artist doing their own song and writing one for them. It certainly puts them in a better position to do what they want when they're the ones performing it.When it's all said and done, I'm loving the journey. There's a lot to learn! I'm working through Pat Pattison's Writing Better Lyrics right now. Good stuff. But I've noticed I've done more reading than I have writing since I committed to this thing. Still.. I'm having a blast.