Comments on Strings

[kurtkreimier]

Hello EverybodyForget the below. I have pulled down version 2 and replaced version 1 with my latest mix. Still have some work to do but this is where I am at this point.I have two versions of the same track and I am looking for comments on which has the better melody strings sounds. The tracks are basically the same with the exception of a slight difference in the cello and violin melody sounds. In fact, any comments or suggestions on any of the parts, mix, voicings, etc.. are welcome. These are not for any particular listing but if somebody knows of a current listing that these might be a good fit for please let me know. While listening think big easy listening / pop / jazz string section.Version 1http://www.taximusic.com/song.php?song_id=8628 ... rueVersion 2 = Gone

[wizz]

Hello. I don´t know much about string and orchestra arrangements but here is a shot at it:Sounds muddy to me. The "backing strings" seems to drown the brighter melodic strings. And I get an impression of that "it´s playing all the time". It might be better to let the backing consist maybe of two themes that plays different patterns, replaced by each other, if you know what I mean. And then bright the melodic parts up EQ wise.Put simply; you need a lot more of separation between the different string elements, frequency speaking. Separate with EQ. And as said, a smarter arrangement on the lower parts, and pull them back, they are very in your face close atm.I couldn´t hear an important difference in the two. Have to admit I only listened to 0:45 on both, and then just jumped quickly through rest.My 2cents.RegardsAnders aka Wizz

[llama]

Hey Kurt,I took a listen to both the versions and thought there were only subtle diffrences between the two. The second sounded somewhat cleaner though I think.Having said that I'm not sure about the string patches that you used. To my ears I thought the backing strings could have used some more dynamics. The attack needed to be slowed down and the overall backing strings needed some more variation, both dynamically and melodically. But I also think you're fighting the limitations of the quality of the patch itself. I liked the guitar and drums, though they were mixed too far back. Off course all this is just MHO....

[kurtkreimier]

Hello Wizz and Dear Llama,Hey thanks so much for listening and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate your taking the time for this. Actually I am using the EWQLSO (Silver) with a combination of cello and violin ensemble and solo instrument patches. The 2nd version has some Sample Tank 2XL POP cello and violin also layered in on the melody lines. Based on what you are saying it seems I might want to do some thinning out of the parts and adding some velocity, additional dynamic swells or perhaps even different patch selections. Although I was going for a much more legato sound perhaps I need to rethink. I'll be experiementing with your ideas over the next few days. Thanks again. Anybody else want to chime in here? You don't need to listen to the entire tracks. Once you get a minute or so in you will get the idea, except for the bridge section after the 2nd chorus where it comes way down. Thanks.Kurt

[ibanez468]

Hey Kurt,Yeah, after listening, I'd have to agree with the previous comments. The strings are way out front. From my experience, (what little there is) they usually sit back behind everything else. I can't hear the drums as well as I probably need to. As of right now, they're (strings) a little overwhelming. They tend to kinda' drown out everything else. Maybe a little more balancing of the instruments will yield better results. I know, it's always a tough nut to crack. Basically what wizz was mentioning about the separation and the eq'ing. And the dynamics as well. Bring 'em down in the mix so you have room to make more dynamic adjustments at key times within the song. Just my .02 FWIW. Good stuff BTW. ibanez468

[panicboy]

Howdy Kurt.Whenever I'm working with strings, I tend to shy away from legato chords right up front. But if you're going to use them, try only an upper register, with some mid-range arpeggios, maybe coupled with a glock sound to give it a bit of definition. These sound to my ear like huge two-handed chords that seem to bury everything else.-Jason.

[jamesm]

One thing I'd suggest is to use something other than more strings for the melody. If the strings are the background, I'd expect to hear some wind grouping, solo sax, or even some brass in parts for the strings. Otherwise, it sounds a lot like a theatre organ, if you know what I mean.I'm just getting into this process, too, so I am by no means a reliable source of suggestions for this kind of thing. I just know that certain things scream "automation/midi" to me when I'm listening to them. In this case, it's the absolute consistent swell on each chord in the strings. If the first chord came in like that and then connected to the second chord without the swell, it would sound more natural to me.How to accomplish that? I'm still trying to figure that out. I'd love to hear people's suggestions. It almost seems like you either need to split the chords across multiple tracks with each track having a different expression of the string sound or you need to insert instrument patches all over the place in the track in order to get each note in the phrase to be "expressed" the way you'd expect a live player to do it.I do really enjoy your B section in the melody. Sounds sort of like a James Bond soundtrack to me. JamesM

[mazz]

Hi Kurt,Nice tunes but the melodies are buried in the background.It sounds to me like you played your string chords using a "string section" patch and played them as chords on a keyboard. They have that "root position diatonic chords moving in parallel" sound, which is not a great way to orchestrate strings. Also, a real string section would probably change bowing but would not re-articulate every chord change. Your strings have that breathing in and out unnatural attack to them. Those are a couple of things that scream out MIDI/sampled orchestra.I suggest that you play each string part separately on it's own track. But first, work out some more interesting voicings. Strings work best spread out, not stacked in thirds, unless you're up higher in the register. Have some strings hold notes (common tones) while the others move and avoid root position major seventh chords if you can unless it's spread out..If you're going to put the melody in the cellos, then you've got to leave room for them in the orchestration. The guitar is in the same range so it needs to be much further back in the mix and the rest of the strings should be voiced at least one inversion higher. Then you've left some room for the cellos to speak. Doubling the cellos with a bassoon mixed in very softly makes the line sing a bit more and gives a more intense feeling to the sound as the bassoon adds a nice overtone to the cellos.On the B section, give the melody to the first violins and put nice wide voicings in the rest of the strings. This will be a nice contrast to the A section. Then when you come back in on the A section with the cellos, do something like a little counter line in the upper strings to add something a bit fresh on the second statement of the A.Just some arranging ideas.Mazz

[kurtkreimier]

Hello Everybody.Hey thanks to all of you for taking the time out to listen to the tracks and give me your thoughts. After a few listens myself I too found the background parts way to up front in the mix and burying the cello melody line, as well as the guitars and drums. I did use individual Cello and Violin Section and Solo patches in putting this together so it was not just a generic string section patch. The samples I used were from the EWQLSO (silver) library. I also tried some more open voicings but I thought the piece was sounding a little too much like a chamber group as opposed to a comtemporary pop/jazz string section. However, I agree Mazz that perhaps going a little more open in the lower voices will help. I may also go ahead and give the bassoon doubling, counter melody and b section changes you recommended a try as well.All that said I did go ahead and do a remix which I think helps some but I still have some work to do. I have never really done something like this with the strings carrying the majority of the melodic and harmonic content and it has been a real learning experience for me. It is great to have a place like this to try out new things and get feedback on what you are doing. Thanks again to all of you.Version 1 Remix - http://www.taximusic.com/song.php?song_ ... tream=true