Re: Looking for Current Sound - Not Worth My Time

mixopenta · Post by **mixopenta** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:54 pm

This is much, much better! You're definitely on the right track here! The vocals and the drums are doing their job, without too much instrumentation, just like they're supposed to. This proves that it's a good song. It's only one thing that I find a bit disturbing in the groove (I'll try to explain what I'm hearing in the best English I can, - hope you'll understand). Normally, with this kind of groove I would have the emphasis, along with a sustained note on the downbeat, and make the "two-and" syncopated note a very short one, like "dooooh-dah" (as opposed to dooooh-dooooh) err- you're free to make all sorts of jokes here. And this will apply to all instruments that are playing on those beats.Doing so, will make the groove a bit more laid back. The problem as I hear it now, is that the beat is kind of "pushing forward" - making it sound a bit stressed and unsettling. Am I making any sense?

jeffe · Post by **jeffe** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:06 pm

Quote:Thanks for the feedback. I'm finding it very helpful. My synths and samples are not old, but how they're being used must be the problem. Which sounds are standing out as the weakest? Is it the ensemble synth punches in the verses? up, I'll keep experimenting with the groove as you have suggested.Jeffe, thanks for the comments. You've got a great ear for harmonies and backup. Should I thin out the b/v in the final chorus? Those harmonies are now feeling too cluttered.JD, I could handle having a contrived robotic song or two if it gets placed somewhere I think the backing and harmonic content is ok, although it might be worth experimenting with a different effect for them to differentiate them more from the lead, and a move the harmonies apart in the stereo field a bit more. Try something that will make your tone sound softer with those vocals, but not the lead. Especially at the end.Here's a tip when recording backing vocals, using the same voice as the lead. When recording each vocal, stand at a different point in front of the mic (ie. to the side). It makes the acoustic properties of the recorded voice slightly different. EQ each backing vocal differently.The messiness comes when the dynamics of all the vocals sound too similar. By making each one acoustically different, you are giving them their own space.Just my observation. You probably already know this.

andreh · Post by **andreh** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:42 pm

Quote:Quote:Thanks for the feedback. I'm finding it very helpful. My synths and samples are not old, but how they're being used must be the problem. Which sounds are standing out as the weakest? Is it the ensemble synth punches in the verses? up, I'll keep experimenting with the groove as you have suggested.Jeffe, thanks for the comments. You've got a great ear for harmonies and backup. Should I thin out the b/v in the final chorus? Those harmonies are now feeling too cluttered.JD, I could handle having a contrived robotic song or two if it gets placed somewhere I think the backing and harmonic content is ok, although it might be worth experimenting with a different effect for them to differentiate them more from the lead, and a move the harmonies apart in the stereo field a bit more. Try something that will make your tone sound softer with those vocals, but not the lead. Especially at the end.Here's a tip when recording backing vocals, using the same voice as the lead. When recording each vocal, stand at a different point in front of the mic (ie. to the side). It makes the acoustic properties of the recorded voice slightly different. EQ each backing vocal differently.The messiness comes when the dynamics of all the vocals sound too similar. By making each one acoustically different, you are giving them their own space.Just my observation. You probably already know this.Hi Jeffe-This is a good idea, and it does achieve the results you describe. I personally find it a less desirable approach since it requires additional EQ passes for each position to eliminate undesirable frequencies (which there almost always are). If I track my backup voxes with the same mic and/or position as the lead (or at least the same as one another), I can still use additional EQ cuts to help them stand out in the mix but I have a better starting point for each.But hey, whatever works!Kindly,Andre

mazz · Post by **mazz** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:45 am

Another trick for backing vocals that I've found useful:Buss all BV tracks to one stereo fader. Pan to taste. Compress/EQ/FX, etc. as a group. This glues the backing vox together and makes them sound more like a unit. gotta run, Mazz

mazz · Post by **mazz** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:04 am

Quote:Good advice Mazz. That also reduces CPU by having one set of effects run on all of the backup vocals.I come from the days of mixing boards and minimum of outboard gear. You had to do that bussing thing. It still works now with DAWs, there's no reason to have the same exact effect plug-in setting on seperate tracks.I'll listen to the new version later at home.Mazz

aubreyz · Post by **aubreyz** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:29 am

Quote:This is just a sketch and I focused more on the rhythm and the instruments. The vocals are rough (with only one verse right now). Any thoughts on improving this sound or making it more modern? I will keep working on the lyrics and vocals, but any comments up to this point are very much appreciated. You can ignore the bridge. It's just a placeholder for now.You're Not Worth My TimeI listened to the earlier version, and there is some really cool stuff going on here. I don't think you've hit a "current" sound, but it's a good song, great voice--- etc. I remember a listing a while back looking for retro stuff that this would have nailed!If you want to get "current" with this--- you'll probably have to strip it down--- listen to the sounds and beat structure, production elements in the new Justin Timberlake stuff. Even though it's not my thing stylewise, that kind of instrumentation and structure around your vocals could really change everything. Some things you might consider: changing the harmony structure when the bgv come in about a minute in... it's good part, but sounds very "Thompson Twins"Also, some effected rap repeats or new lines might really add some current tone. The beat and groove is toe tapping, but sounds more like early drum machine patterns than the kind of grooves used currently-- (another suggestion is to check out some of Andre's stuff -- I love his production style in this genre).The vocoder effect works, but if you "Cher effected" it with an autotune plug, it might sound more updated too.Cool work... I haven't commented much on your stuff, but I have listened to quite a bit, and think you are very talented!Aub

grandmatarkin · Post by **grandmatarkin** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:58 am

Johnny hates Mazz??? Why Oh... sorry Songwriter, I've said it before, and I'll say it again... GREAT voice. Love it. Great melodic sense, too. Nice to see/hear that. The talent here is evident. One comment ... at 2:52, it's sounds like you have an F# on the word "stop" over an F major. This happens at other points in the song too, but I really noticed it there. It not even really THAT noticeable; the effect is still achieved.If you want an easy fix without having to change the melody, try this progression instead...D ---- D (C in the bass) --- G ... so that the D/C replaces the F chord where the sung F# is. And if you want to retain the rising feel (D, F, G) which I suspect you were going for, you could alternately try

--- C(E in the bass) --- G ... this time with the C/E replacing the F. I don't really know what you'd like better, but I'm just throwin' it out there, so to speak Here's another one (sorry):D --- E7 --- G (I personally prefer this one)But overall, I REALLY liked this song... good show, old spice!

mazz · Post by **mazz** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:20 am

Very cool song, nice arrangement, vocals good as usual.I think you're tuning your ear to a more tasteful use of effects on the vocal. This version seems to have a toned down doubler/chorus on the lead which is much more pleasing. Your voice is already good so you don't need to "Phil Collins-ize" it very much.I'm agreeing with Aub on everything. I also have some specific arrangement ideas that would apply to pretty much any style:Your synth line is too busy during the chorus. You already have a busy lead vocal and the backing vox are providing pretty much the maximum counterpoint the modern pop ear can withstand, IMO. The moving synth line in the same frequency range as the lead diminishes the impact of the chorus and confuses the ear, IMO.It appears that nowadays, synths are pretty dry, just like vocals. A good band that is very "now" with their production techniques is Goldfrapp, they use vintage synths to great advantage with just enough effects but not too much. I'd make the synth line in the intro almost bone dry, in the same sonic space as the lead vocal. When the lead vocal comes in, the synth can drop back quite a bit since we've already established it in our mind, we can take it much softer and still realize it's there.The vocoder parts could be more of an answer or a call/response thing. I'd almost like to hear it be the "inner" voice (as in inside the head voice) and then switch to the regular lead vocal for the "outer" voice. The effect is best used in small doses and to accentuate your lyrical points.Keep up the good work,Mazz

andreh · Post by **andreh** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:34 pm

Quote:Quote:This is just a sketch and I focused more on the rhythm and the instruments. The vocals are rough (with only one verse right now). Any thoughts on improving this sound or making it more modern? I will keep working on the lyrics and vocals, but any comments up to this point are very much appreciated. You can ignore the bridge. It's just a placeholder for now.You're Not Worth My Time<snip>Also, some effected rap repeats or new lines might really add some current tone. The beat and groove is toe tapping, but sounds more like early drum machine patterns than the kind of grooves used currently-- (another suggestion is to check out some of Andre's stuff -- I love his production style in this genre).AubThanks Aub! On the subject, I've found a few tricks to help my raps sound a bit more authentic:- Don't be too "sing-songy" with them; if you listen to most rap, you'll hear that there is a pitch center even though it sounds like the rappers are just "talking" (or yelling). This is important because it allows words with inflections to stand out more, giving key lines or words character. It also provides a better sense of structure in the song.- Listen to accents, colloquialisms, and word pronunciations common in the genre and try to emulate them. At the same time, be original - that's a hallmark of the genre's constant evolution.- Use plug-ins like Soundtoys Purepitch to affect the formant, or mouthshape, of your voice. This can help give your tone more (or less) "authority" if it needs it.Of course, you could always bring in some "real" rappers to do the job if you know any that you're comfortable working with, or you may be able to wrangle a few who have their own basic recording setup who can "spit venom" over your tracks.HTH,Andre

andreh · Post by **andreh** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:43 pm

Quote:I think Jeffe is suggesting using mic position to not just effect frequency but the fundamental tone, to make it seem like different singers.I would be wary of this approach unless I were recording in a good room, since the differences you hear between various mic positions may just be the way your room is resonating certain frequencies - and that may cause problems come mix time.Also, unless you have a mic with variable pickup patterns, you're not likely to coax many more than one "best" sound for your voice out of it.Not to discredit Jeffe's suggestion, though...It's certainly worth experimenting with, and there really are no hard fast rules...if it sounds good, it is good!André