Re: orchestral/instrumental - The Mountain Top

amos · Post by **amos** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:56 am

It's ridiculously good! I myself have just ordered the EWQLSO and am expecting it tomorrow. I'm very impressed.If you're still learning this particular style of music I would say that you are on your way.The swell at 39 seconds is great. The horns sound a little "buzzy" to me at 45 seconds and on though.Good job.

allends · Post by **allends** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:39 am

Hi songwriter,You have a very creative & pleasant melody here - congrats! I'm not an orchestral writer but as a listener I felt the piece sounded a little sonically dense throughout. And maybe the beginning could have been more subtle, say, piano only for a few notes (your call). I wasn't bothered by the horns as was our friend Amos, but I did notice something else: That great pumping groove with the basses that heats up around 1:04 appears to lag behind in a noticeable way. That makes me wonder whether live performers would compensate for their instrument's slower attack by playing slightly ahead of the beat.Do orchestral sequencing experts in this forum recognize this effect and tweak their compositions?-Allen

davewalton · Post by **davewalton** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:03 am

Quote:I'm still trying to learn EWQLSO. This is a vignette, not a full piece. It builds on a standard theme and tries to explore different contrasts and dynamics. Lots of articulations and options in that library!The Mountain Top (soundclick player)The Mountain Top (mp3)Feel free to be frank with your comments. I'm solidly in learning mode with this style of music.Nice piece. My only critical comment is that from 0:00 to 0:37, the strings articulation you're using has a slow attack and no expression beyond the initial attack. Because this is the only articulation you're using it sounds kind of flat and processed, especially compared to the rest of the piece where the realism is very good.You might try using a legato patch for the strings in that early section so that the legato patch plays most of the notes and the patch you're using plays maybe the ending note in each phrase. You'll have to experiment but, anything to keep from hearing the same patch with the same attack over and over. Plus, for those notes that sustain, trying using CC11 expression so that those notes die out somewhat as they're sustaining. It'll give the strings more "life" and also add interest to keep things from sounding too stiff.I'm also in learning mode with EWQLSO (Gold XP). It's all relative I guess. I've made good progress but then I listen to their demos and realize I've got a lot of work to do. Good stuff there.Dave

davewalton · Post by **davewalton** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:07 am

Quote:Do orchestral sequencing experts in this forum recognize this effect and tweak their compositions?Not answering as an "orchestral sequencing expert" but rather as a "composition tweaker", the answer is yes. Some things have to be moved ahead slightly to compensate for slower attacks.

matto · Post by **matto** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:06 am

Hi,this is quite good!I agree with Dave. The string sound in the beginning is not ideal, because it doesn't do convincing legato, nor does it have enough expressiveness in it.You could try the 11 Violins QLegato Dxf patch there (it's one of my faves, very smooth), riding the mod wheel to get some expression in there (talking about musical "expression" here, not CC11).Amos' comment about the "buzzy" French Horns is also valid IMO. The buzzy sound comes from the FHorns playing a consistent fff, which is not what real players would play in a passage like that. To avoid this you would bring up the volume of the FHorn part, then play with softer velocity (or at lower Mod Wheel excursion if using a Dxf patch) to get a rounder sound that's more in the f range, with maybe some swells up to ff (I'm a big proponent of using Dxf patches for the long articulations, since they allow for those types of swells and, in general, more life like dynamics).That being said I really like this piece so far, you're certainly making great strides with Gold. Seems like you're enjoying your purchase... matto

mazz · Post by **mazz** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:42 am

I like your piece a lot and I also concur with the other reviewers regarding the articulations.Matto's suggestion on the DXF patches is a very good one and I'm going to try that as well on my pieces. I tend to use more CC11 and keyswitching and not very much DXF unless I need a crescendo that isn't available with one of the keyswitch patches. You have a good ear for orchestration and a good compositional sense, you're on your way.Looking forward to hearing more.Mazz

burninsven · Post by **burninsven** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:16 am

This sounds really good. you make good use of this plugin I´ve got it to never managed to make a piece as good as this one though. I´ll post a song of my own if you want to listen. Good luck with this one I´m sure it´ll make it out there on the market.

matto · Post by **matto** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:50 am

Quote:Thanks a lot for the feedback. I worry you're being too kind. Don't hold back! Matto and Dave, after reading your comment I spent some time trying to improve those patches. For one thing, I learned not to do exposed string parts with sustained notes in future songs I put in some imperfections, bigger swells, and did a bit of layering using kontakt's strings. I also put the volume down a touch because it didn't make sense to have them so loud at the start. Any better? Here is the new version:The Mountain Top V2 (soundclick)" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">The Mountain Top V2 (mp3)Mazz, I agree with you and Matto. I like the DXF patches, but then you can't switch articulations as easily, and I find the lyrical patches to be nice for long or key notes. Amos and Matto, I reduced the horn velocities. I will admit I liked the bite of the fff notes, but I agree they were too much for all of the notes. Allen I nudged some of the bass parts left a touch to see if they got in sync more.Any other ideas? Did I make anything worse?Definitely an improvement!The strings at the beginning sound better and more natural, less "sucking" artifacts in there (what I mean by that is the sound you get when you try to play a legato line with a sample that has a slow attack..the level gets "sucked down" at note transitions). I still think the strings sound a bit too much like an organ patch in that they start and stay at a virtually contant level in the first 5 seconds or so...a real string section would start more softly and swell up over the course of that little "intro" before the start of the melody.Switching to the softer velocity on the French Horns definitely helps the overall sound as well, it just sounds more realistic.You're correct that using Dxf precludes you from articulation switching (although the Dxf Acc Vel patches allow some flexibility).But for an exposed part like this beginning where it's just piano and strings I would use a Dxf patch to be able to achieve maximum realism. LOading up an extra patch just for that would be worth it to me.Generally speaking I almost always use Dxf on brass, due to the large change in timbre thru the brass' dynamic range. I use it a lot on strings, particularly in sparse or exposed settings. I rarely use it on woodwinds, which have a relatively small change in timbre from soft to loud, thus expression works quite well there.matto

mazz · Post by **mazz** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:07 am

Yes, much improved.I could only get it to work with the Soundclick player and on my system, near the end when the strings are doing the 8th note arpeggios, the melody is obscured.In my experience with arpeggio parts in the strings like you have in that section, they can be very soft and still provide that sense of motion, particularly if you use accents and something to make them swell on the way up and fade on the way down (DXF, Velocity, CC11, whatever works). Accents will provide rhythmic motion and may even create a more interesting rhythmic feel within the simple 8th note arpeggio. In other words, the cumulative rhythm of the accented notes adds another layer of rhythmic interest (if that is what you are going for). It's kind of like a clave in latin music.Nice work, keep it up. Mazz