Another ambiguous return.

[crs7string]

Aug 28, 2009, 10:23am, wings wrote:Chuck - while I don't disagree, being straight up goes a long way in a relationship. I'm as straight up as they come. And I'm going to call a spade a spade. If you don't want to work with me because I'm straight up - that's fine. But those who do work with me know exactly how I operate and I have long term relationships with my clients and they can certainly attest to that. ~wings~John,None of my comments in my last post were directed at you. I was attempting to point out the importance of relationships (on this Forum and those developed at the Rally) These relationships can be helpful in finding signposts along the way on this journey in this TAXI.I agree that being straight up is important, There are also other aspects of developing relationships here and with our end users that sometimes requires us to not be straight up. For instance, I would never tell a library owner that I think he is completely missing the essense of a track I'm pitching, even if that's truly the way I felt. It would do nothing to move the relationship forward.I don't like getting returned on a listing either, but I learned a while ago that coming on the Forum and complaining about the listing, the listing party, TAXI and the screeners, is an exercise in wasted energy. This system will never be perfect.And, I have posted this many times, the listing parties do get on this Forum. I know this first hand from discussions with two owners of libraries that I have developed relationships with from TAXI listings.These folks want to work with reasonable people, largely due to the fact that they can choose who they want to work with.Again, this is not directed at you. When I joined TAXI 3 1/2 years ago I paid attention to Matto, Mazz, Dave Walton, Hummingbird, Casey and others because they were already here and on the journey. By paying attention to them (and by the way spending a lot of time with them at the Rally and elsewhere) I am far further ahead on my journey than I would have been otherwise.My comments are somewhat a form of trying to give something back to the newer folks around the Forum. You don't have to heed any of the advice or thoughts. That's up to you. I'm just trying to share some of what I've learned that has been working.Chuck

[Casey H]

It would be silly for me to say that anything (like taxi) is perfect and could not improve based on member feedback. Letting taxi know that you found the description lacking it part of that. I think the feedback works better when members call or email directly than posting on the forum. That's been my experience.You've probably heard some of us here mention that listings and music requests outside of taxi are way more vague and lacking in info. I've experienced a lot of that. If you send a track to a library or publisher on your own (based on their own stated request), they could reject it for any reason under the sun, and tell you or not tell you. There would be no one to argue with.One thing you have to remember is taxi has to work to get listings. That's not always easy. Not every library, publisher, or label wants to come on-board. So they walk a fine line finding out what their needs are while not bugging them so much that they withdraw. (Probably not the case with THIS listing with a well known client)... And they do a very good job extracting as much info as possible in 99% of cases, even if there is an occasional bugaboo. Most complaints about listing descriptions I've read here didn't seem very valid IMO. It came down to members learning how to read them better, the meaning of "a la", etc... And guess what? It ain't always going to work right. If you don't think members should have to make effort to learn to better read listings, I don't know what to say. It seems like a small effort for a potential big return. It's also how things work in the industry so it's good training... And I'm not saying that there were no issues at all with this listing. I just don't see the level of problem as high as others.One thing matto taught a lot of us is to remember, "It's just one listing" and "It's just one track". What he's saying is to be successful you need to get to the point where any one listing or track is not that big of a deal. I can't say I'm there yet but I understand it well now.Have a great weekend! Casey

[wings]

It looks like another person got very ambiguous feedback as well. http://taxi.proboards.com/index.cgi?boa ... =15435Look - I believe in Taxi - I just believe that this particular listing did not fit what they really were looking for, and I think they should be a bit more particular in what they are asking for instead of the "no stone unturned" and "in all genre's " comment. From a business perspective, I would certainly ask that of my client. I own an IT company, and website design is very subjective - my web designers ALL get that. But we make it a point to fully understand the client's need BEFORE we design. I must say that our success rate is incredibly high because we take time to pay attention to DETAIL. Thanks for a spirited debate. I hope someone from Taxi is listening. All my best,~wings~

[matto]

Aug 27, 2009, 10:14am, wings wrote:Then - SAY IT'S FOR TV It said..."Music Producer who is creating a new independent music library"..."he is the provider of music for a huge daytime television talk show"Given that TV is one of the major users of library music and this guy is connected in (daytime) TV, it would appear somewhat obvious that TV friendly music is what's needed...or not?As far as the "impact" issue: anytime you are sending a demo out that represents you as a composer to a potential client, it needs to have impact. You have to IMPRESS the person because your demo is going to be one among many this person will listen to, so you need to get straight to the point and "show your stuff".It's really akin to making an impression on a job interview. Does every job listing in your local newspaper say: "Essential to make an impression during job interview"? No, beacuse that's just common sense. So it is with music demos. If you didn't know this, you just learned an imprtant lesson for only 15 bucks.Also, if you really feel that making a living in the music business is by far the cheesiest way of making a living, perhaps you should just stick to your many other businesses instead of insulting those "cheeseheads" among us who do make a living with music. Just a thought...matto

[matto]

Aug 28, 2009, 11:47am, markjsmith wrote: OK, WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO RESEARCH ON THE LISTINGS! I paid TAXI money-that price should include FULL disclosure on what the listings want! Not ambiguous descriptions (can a brother get an ala?). This is REALLY the case on instrumental listings more so than other genres. Being that I'm an instrumental guy this drives me a little nuts!Mark, I can pretty much guarantee you this description came from the listing party, and Taxi did their best to clarify it further.I can tell you from my experience having worked professionally as a composer in the tv/film industries for a number of years now, that these vague descriptions are commonplace when you deal with non music people and if it is your goal to make a living within the music for media industries you HAVE to learn to read between the lines and you HAVE to be willing to do your research. If you take these listings as an opportunity to learn about the type of descriptions common in the industry you will be all the better prepared when you get those calls directly from producers...If you rant and complain about them you'll prove to any producer or music library owner who happens to drop by these forums that you're not ready for the job.I've gotten descriptions from "We want it kind of like Vegas but with a French twist" (I nailed that one, for a major blockbuster movie) to "Really a Southern Gospel sound, but more like John Williams" (missed that one by a mile , it was the theme for a daytime diva's prestigious primetime special)...and those were some of the better descriptions actually. This IS what it's like to work with producers in the media world, and telling them they are full of it and should the f**k be clearer in their descriptions doesn't work too well...trust me. HTH,matto

[fusilierb]

Aug 28, 2009, 9:40pm, matto wrote:Aug 27, 2009, 10:14am, wings wrote:Then - SAY IT'S FOR TV It said..."Music Producer who is creating a new independent music library"..."he is the provider of music for a huge daytime television talk show"Given that TV is one of the major users of library music and this guy is connected in (daytime) TV, it would appear somewhat obvious that TV friendly music is what's needed...or not?As far as the "impact" issue: anytime you are sending a demo out that represents you as a composer to a potential client, it needs to have impact. You have to IMPRESS the person because your demo is going to be one among many this person will listen to, so you need to get straight to the point and "show your stuff".It's really akin to making an impression on a job interview. Does every job listing in your local newspaper say: "Essential to make an impression during job interview"? No, beacuse that's just common sense. So it is with music demos. If you didn't know this, you just learned an imprtant lesson for only 15 bucks.Also, if you really feel that making a living in the music business is by far the cheesiest way of making a living, perhaps you should just stick to your many other businesses instead of insulting those "cheeseheads" among us who do make a living with music. Just a thought...mattoWow matto, the truth comes crashing out. This is refreshingly clear guidance. Thanks!B

[matto]

Aug 29, 2009, 8:04am, markjsmith wrote:Hi Matto, I understand what you are saying, and I've actually gotten pretty good at reading between the lines! I've had a quite a few forwards on some of these vague listings (heck, I had a tune forwarded on this one). I just think since we are PAYING Taxi that they should do the same for us instrumental guys as they do for pop or country songwriters (re: my Can a brother get an ala? comment). Just about all the songwriter listings get ala (whoever) and us instro guys half at best. That's because the a la's come from the listing party. I could be wrong about this but I wouldn't be surprised that when this individual called in the listing, Taxi probably asked "What do you mean by all genres...can you give us some examples?"..to which the lister might've replied "All genres means exactly that...no stone will be left unturned"...Now Taxi could've said, "Sorry sir, unless you give us a la's we cannot run this listing because our members are paying us for this service"...to which the lister might have replied: "You f&*%$#@ a*&%#$@, don't you know who the f%$# I am, I will go find my f &%$#$& composers elsewhere" Personally, I'd rather HAVE the opportunity knowing full well that I may or may not nail it.I know we are paying Taxi...but as far as I'm concerned we are not paying them to present to us some kind of musical utopia that doesn't exist in the real world, where every potential client knows exactly what they want and is able to express it beautifully...if they did this they would do us a disservice IMHO. We are paying them to connect us with the real life muisc business, warts and all.Quote:I can deal with vague! The problem with vague listings is you can't ALWAYS nail it. Exactly...that's something that's the same in the real world and I go in accepting it when I throw my hat in the ring. The examples I mentioned in the last post were a lot like Taxi listings...no pay unless you nail the assignment, and the descriptions are very vague. You ask as many questions as you feel you can without ticking the person off (that may be only one or two unless you know the person fairly well)...remember the more questions you ask the more likely are you to expose the fact that they don't know what it is they want, and if you've ever worked with producers you know they'd rather say "sorry you really just don't seem to be *getting* this, we'll go with someone else" rather than admit that they don't know what they're doing...Knowing what the real world is I find the Taxi listings quite clear generally speaking, certainly a lot better than the average real world description. So I feel I have a much better chance of nailing the listing, which to me is well worth the price of admission.I don't think the sytem *can* be perfect because it's dealing with a very imperfect real world.

[matto]

Aug 29, 2009, 7:38am, didger wrote:Don't you also need to show your mellow stuff that is also needed in TV? Can't a client by impressed by perfect mellow underscore as well as high impact pieces? Mazz said in this thread that the client recently rejected some of his pieces for being too busy, while what he needs is beds - which I read as simple music that DOESN'T draw attention away from what's on screen.Randin in my experience nine times out of ten they will pick demos that WOW them. Regardless of whether what they actually need is unobtrusive bg music. I suppose the thinking is if a composer can wow you then writing subdued underscore music would be easy for them. IF there's even any thinking involved...my feeling is they just go with gut instinct. And WOW will hit you in the gut much more than subdued.Remember we are not dealing with musicians nine times out of ten.To go back to the job interview analogy, what most companies look for in most employees is someone that blends in, does his job competently without drawing much attention to himself, and doesn't question his superiors. A "unremarkable cog" for the giant machinery. However, if you go into a job interview presenting yourself as an unremarkable cog, they won't go "Wow, you are EXACTLY what this company needs!!" ...instead they will have forgotten about you by the time you close the door behind you.This is how it is with demos, in my experience. The word demo comes from "demonstration recording". You have to "demonstrate" what you can do, which in my book is a stronger word than just "show"...it's more like "show off".Now please remember I'm NOT saying every piece you submit to every listing should be some giant orchestral movie trailer that would make the walls of Jericho crumble. But, while remaining in the context of the listing, and unless otherwise specified, a demo that has "impact" will get you that call back much more frequently than one that's subdued underscore.