How to use power chords on diminished triads?

[gongchime]

How do composers for rock guitar usually handle the desired occurrence of a diminished chord in a series of power chords. It doesn't have a perfect fifth so do they leave out the fifth, blatantly play the diminished fifth, ignore it playing a perfect fifth above anyway, separate the tritone between the bass and the guitar, or play the chords inverted? Can it be so many progressions just aren't played? I'm thinking of bands like U2, Radiohead and ColdPlay. Know of any rock songs in the vein where the vii is used?

Desired vii chord progressions;

I vii IV vi

I vii ii IV

I vii ii vi

I vii ii vi

I IV vii

I vii ii iii

I vii vi iii

I vii V I

I vii I vii

I vii vi vii

I vii vi ii

I vii I ii

I vii I V

I IV vii vi

I IV ii vii

I IV vi vii

I V IV vii

I V ii vii

I V vi vii

Thanks,

[ottlukk]

Gong:
One of the things I find amazing about these boards is the degree to the cognescenti among us analyze things. In your case, I'm in first grade, and you're a concert pianist. hope someone here can give you a more helpful response.
Ott

[t4mh]

Gong

Flatted Fifth or diminished fifth is all the rage in Metal and Industrial these days. I hear it all the time. Its like a new tonality for a lot of younger players. Generally, you hear it just the root and the b5. Many bands tune down some and then use an open tuning like Open D so you get the root in octaves and add the b5 in between. The bands you mention might all be "too lite" for this sound. You'll have to listen to something much heavier and contemporary but its there. Many of the progressions I hear contain a lot of chromatics. At least thats my take away from listening to some of them.

Keith

[rnrmachine]

Gong:
One of the things I find amazing about these boards is the degree to the cognescenti among us analyze things. In your case, I'm in first grade, and you're a concert pianist. hope someone here can give you a more helpful response.
Ott

It is really not that difficult ottlukk. What he is talking about is chord progression. Place the Key you are in, in the first position, let's say C for simplicity. Then in C major, the triad would be iii = E minor, IV = F major, V = G major, notice the roman numerals tell you what number from the root it is. That is ascending of course. Play those chords out and listen to how they relate in tone, to eachother. That is a triad... it's been a while that I have thought it in theory like this.. I just do it automatically when I want that sound. Now when creating leads it becomes a bit more complex, but that is for a different thread. hehe

I agree with t4mh, playing the odd part of the sound/chord has become popular to a point. Imho, I think it has more to do with distortion becoming so clear that you can. There was a time that if you played any odd note it just ruined the chord and sounded like garbage. There was a few exceptions. It may be that the guitarist will play the "proper 5th" or leave it out alltogether and the bassist plays that note to keep the feel. Possibly the singer will sing it. All depends really. I personaly like more resolved sounds coming from a distored guitar and let another instrument/vocal pick up the foul note in quesion. If you are doing a clean guitar verse then going into a power chord chorus though, I would play it in the verse (the dim 5th) and mute in chorus UNLESS playing the proper 5th works and only if I need the extra string ringing out. If you are talking recording.. just layer the weaker chords. You could also try playing one of your other choices... take a clue from motely crue - she's got the looks that kill. You can still add the octave even though he does not. Probably because his pinky couldn't reach it without sounding like crap. hehe OR most likely just because it sounded cool as is.

Like I said, my theory is way out of practice, I have been solo for so long I haven't the need to talk in theory. Some people sit down with a pen and paper to write a songs melody. I make a drum beat then goto town... it's so much more fun that way. Unless I was too do a symphony.. then I would write. So if I am way off base here I apologize for the bad info. I am confident it's all good though.

HTH,

Rob

[elser]

It's pretty common to use the root and flat 5 as either part of a diminished chord or as the 3rd and 7th of a dominant 7 chord. Check out the third chord on the chorus of 'Allstar' by Smashmouth and also the third chord in the bridge of 'Beverly Hills' by Weezer and you'll hear it in a pop/rock context.

[thokus]

HUH!!! I just play what sounds cool...

[Casey H]

HUH!!! I just play what sounds cool...

My guess that a great deal of rock music has been and is still made that way. However, knowing the theory and/or additional chord structures can only help us.

Casey

[Ajetpackoperation]

Wasn't King Crimson one of, if not the first, to do this in rock with Larks' Tongues in Aspic? Before that in more of a jazz/free improv idiom there was Masayuki Takayanagi and of course 不失者.

I'm just learning this theory stuff. All I've been doing thus far is listening to Messiean, Nordheim, and Scelsi and try to make pop music.

[Ryan Mete]

Whenever I use the vii after a I chord in power chords, I use an augmented fifth on the vii chord. This is not the diminished chord you specified but it fits the progression and sounds clear even with heavy distortion on the guitar. For your "I vii IV vi" progression you could try something like this:

(in D Major)
-x--x--x--x-
-x--x--x--x-
-7--6--x--4-
-7--7--5--4-
-5--4--5--2-
-x--x--3--x-

Again, the c# chord in this is not diminished (like it should be if we were following the rules) but it might work for what you are going for. Good luck!

[t4mh]

Wasn't King Crimson one of, if not the first, to do this in rock with Larks' Tongues in Aspic?

WOW! Blast from the past! I haven't listened to KC in a LONG TIME! I don't know if they were the 1st, a lot of really strange things and a hassle to play for sure, I kinda doubt it, diminished stuff goes WAY back in Rock, not to mention other genres. I can remember jazz things I've heard, Joe Pass, Barney Kessel to name just a couple, lots of diminished work! True, open 5ths have been more of a mainstay(The Rock Chord) but diminished things work well with Dorian, another basic of Rock. Its funny how the kids think they've invented something new.

Keith