The publics attitude on piracy

[t4mh]

It goes beyond music and musicians. It's intellectual property and the concept of intellectual property in general. I'd be willing to bet that Toyota doesn't allow just anyone to see the designs of cars they intend to manufacture, and I'd also be willing to bet that they don't share it freely on their internal network or over the internet. And I'm sure that someone caught stealing those designs would be punished heavily, because that person was stealing their intellectual property. Even if the car was designed by one person or a team of 200 persons, it's still intellectual property and protected by laws.

Sure, the difference between a car design and a song might seem big, but in reality they're both creations and have the potential to generate income for the creators and stealing either one is theft of intellectual property.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if you take something without paying for it, it's stealing. The Mexican grocery store down the street from me has lots of fruits and vegetables on stands on the sidewalk. Is it right for me to nick an apple and justify it to myself that it's OK because there was no one standing out there to take my money?

It seems so basic to me, am I missing something?

Mazz

For the most part I completely agree with you and I don't want to split hairs, but ( hair splitting here done here ), Intellectual Property would be more like the way you go about writing a track, your knowledge of your computers, your relationships within the industry. That sort of thing. Similar to the plans to build or how to build a car or how to buy apples at wholesale for retail sales. Its something you "know". Some of this information you give away here freely and I must add I'm glad of that! The track is a thing, albeit an electronic thing but a thing no less, just like the car or the apple, a product, which is or could be stolen. I mention this only because I do not think that Intellectual Property Laws are applicable in this case. But we can call it anything we want for conversation.

In a way, that makes the whole thing more simple. We already have laws against stealing the car AND the apple!

Its true that ISPs are in the fore front of computer communications but there is another much more obvious trench in the war. That is every operating system of every computer and server in the world. With the exception of open source, there are no workarounds, no escape. If we take the attitude that you cannot try the apple before you buy it then simply insert or embed in the OS code that no media file transfer can take place without being preceded by a financial transaction. The only way that the OS makers, Microsoft, Apple, whoever does Cell Phones, are going to get on board is if the "whats in it for me?" factor is taken care of. We're all going to have to pony up a portion or percentage of the proceeds. They become the internet PRO. Monetize the problem. Apple should be fine with this as they already have their store front, itunes, setup!

There are abundant problems with this, not the least of which is that musicians the world over or the music industry need to be on board. There are many big time players out there in the world that WANT their media to be free. The biggest I can think of at the moment is Youtube. I'd also bet some of them are major record labels who are more interested in merchandising than record sales. How hard do you think they'd fight?

Just askin
Keith

[fusilierb]

I hope at some point it the ISPs will be able or wiling to block illegal downloads. and music websites could be more like radio stations (ie. Pandora) for listening, not downloading, and sell advertising and/or subscriptions to pay for music licensing.

Jim

This is already happening. My next door neighbor, about 7 years younger than me, get's movies and music all the time from peer to peer. So does virtually everyone I know by the way.

One day his internet gets cut off. He calls to find out why and they told him he had downloaded pirated material and named the file. What was really scary to me, was that as soon as he deleted it, they could tell that, and they turned back on his connection.

How exactly did they know what was on his hard drive??? That's scary. He is now scared to use peer to peer. He still does, but the freewheeling stealing days are basically over for him now.

Again, how did they know what was on his hard drive?
B

[mazz]

Again, how did they know what was on his hard drive?
B

Maybe because he's a thief and they know it now so they're watching him? Stores have security cameras and systems because people steal, it doesn't surprise me that they know his IP address. It's probably not that difficult for the ISP to figure that out. If he's stupid enough to steal stuff and think no one knows it, then he deserves it, IMO. Sorry, no sympathy from me.

Yeah, it's scary but stuff like this happens because people don't obey the law and then the people who do end up suffering for it.

It's not about "it's OK to steal Pink Floyd because they're already rich". It's about "it's not OK to steal anyone's intellectual property". I only hope that we all get to make a living from our creativity, and in order to do that, we need to let people know that it's not OK to steal any intellectual property, even if it's easy.

I sound like a broken record, remember those? If you got caught stealing one of those, you got busted.

[fusilierb]

I think u missed what I said. They could tell that he had deleted the file from his machine. It's easy to see how they saw the file come down. But how could they know that he deleted the file??

B

[t4mh]

I think u missed what I said. They could tell that he had deleted the file from his machine. It's easy to see how they saw the file come down. But how could they know that he deleted the file??

B

Most likely had file sharing turned on so files could be shared with a cell phone.
Geezz I'm getting to the point where I hate computers...
Keith

[Hookjaw Brown]

Musicians steal.....musical ideas and riffs from other musicians, living and dead. Jam sessions are notorious for this.

The Sachmo covered his horn with a cloth so that other trumpet players couldn't see his fingering. It is amusing how many "modern" songs are based on works of long dead musicians. As composers/songwriters, we could be accused of 'fencing' stolen works and complaining about not getting paid.

[fusilierb]

I think u missed what I said. They could tell that he had deleted the file from his machine. It's easy to see how they saw the file come down. But how could they know that he deleted the file??

B

Most likely had file sharing turned on so files could be shared with a cell phone.
Geezz I'm getting to the point where I hate computers...
Keith

I can feel you on that. This story was brought to my attention, cause he was really freaked out about how they could possibly see what was and wasn't on his harddrive. He knows I'm techy and came to me. I was really stumped. The quote from the guy at Cox cable was "I can see that you've deleted the file and then they turned back on his pipe while he was on the phone with them.

I have some theories on how they could see this and I think your somewhere close. All the peer to peer networks prioritize your download speed based on how much you are "giving" back. Ie. everything that you bring down you have the ability to make yourself a node that others can use to essentially steal from your machine. Your another host in other words. I think that somehow a digital watermark allowed them to know that this particular file was a stolen file and they could see it in his shared directory somehow. That's how I'm hoping they could do it. The alternative's mean we're starting to live in 1984 (the novel, not the year)

I also brought this up because the original article that started this thread was about limewire being shut down. If they can monitor Limewire specifically through some sort of technology at the isp level AND they shut down limewire, then these fools have just shot themselves in the foot by essentially killing one of the few ways of monitoring and policing piracy. They just forced it back underground where they, once again, will have no influence on ability to deal with it.

We all want the public to understand that this is criminal, but until people get caught, like my friend, they won't. You have to show these people that they can see you and that there are consequences to file sharing. In this case, cutting off the offenders pipe is easily the most effective way that I've heard of yet. It certainly worked in this case as now he is no longer file sharing, cause he got busted and is now to scared to do it anymore.

B

But I still want to know exactly how they could tell that he had deleted the file.

[t4mh]

Well generally, you can see each computer on the internet and at least some of its resources. This is especially true of computers connected to a specific server like an ISP. The server IS the master, the users are the clients. This is nothing new to somebody who knows how. In this day and age you generally have to either have permission (username and password) or permissions have to be down to look further or deeper. The server operating system gives the machine a lot of power and there is a guest account on most machines if you know how to invoke it. Actually, as I sit here and think about it I can think of several possibilities. Not sure if I agree with any of that. Newer and newer operating systems are more and more secure. At one time, your computer would have been like an open book. Still just about anything can be hacked except a hardware firewall that is kept up to date.

A computer is sort of like Captain Kirk in Star Trek. The shields must go up in order to fire the photon torpedo revealing the enterprise's postion. When you click on a hyperlink, your computer must send some information about itself in order for the server to return the requested data back to it. That "traffic" can be logged. This is how the IT Nazis at work can keep up with what you're doing on the company equipment. Just check the logs. But Cox looking at a harddrive as a result of a traffic log seems pretty invasive to me. I used to have Cox when I lived in the south. I never saw where they were like this when I used them.

These days most everybody has some sort of cable box or modem. The ISP usually doesn't go beyond looking at the modem status. But they have the ability to go further for use in getting subscribers hooked up and running.

Keith

[elser]

Elser,

You forgot Global Warming....terrorists and moral terps have been around a long time. Definitely before DOD's Darpanet and Al Gore's invention of the Internet.

LOL, of course you're right. I think "The New World Order" is in order, it's just a matter of time before they spring it on us. I'm not necessarily for it or against it but I think in time it we'll be apparent that it is necessary.

The USA has the problem of individualism, which promotes new ideas......lots and lots and lots of new ideas. So many the the US Patents and Copyrights offices have problems keeping up with them all. So many ideas that the value of an idea is diluted. Technology will gain control of theft of ideas, or the ideas will stop being shared.

Thank you, you just made my point. Replace 'ideas' with 'music' in your sentence and I agree with you. People who invent, think big and revealing thoughts, write stories and create music do it because they love it...partly...if they didn't see a potential for profit they would be less inclined to do those things. That is probably the reason people in the U.S. are so inventive, they have the ability to make a living from their creativity, and if they are good at it they should be able to make their living from it.

This brings me back to the original point of this thread which is; if the public isn't made aware of the fact that downloading copyrighted material is stealing then the chances of controlling it will be very difficult.


Which brings me to Madcap. I'm so glad you showed up in the discussion, tell all your friends about it too if you think about it, I think we all enjoy hearing your view.

t seems to me that this is a generational issue....... i'm only 22 and an inspiring musician (why else would i be on taxi!) and to be honest 90% of my friends illegally download music off the web. I have to admit i have done it before myself.... a lot of the bands my friends would download are already very popular artists who have made millions......

First thing I'd like to ask you is how do you plan to make your living from music? Who is going to pay you, and for doing what? Selling your music to fans of music use to be one of the primary sources for many musicians. I hope your not planning to make your living from selling your own music.
Second I'll bet I could change your statement that " a lot of the bands my friends download...have made millions..." to "some of the bands..."
If your anything like me, and I'll bet you are, you want to find new and undiscovered music from up and coming bands, but I'll bet you guys are downloading their music for free as well.

personally i dont see anything too wrong with me downloading for example..... ehhhhh 'dark side of the moon' because it has sold millions all around the world and that wont make much of a difference to the pockets of waters, gilmour and co.

You're right, there isn't anything too wrong with it, just like there isn't anything too wrong with stealing a Coke from a company like Coca-Cola. Never the less, it is wrong, but when you steal a Coke there's a much better chance you'll get caught, so you don't do it.
When I was a teenager in the 70s gas got really expensive for awhile. So me and any of my friends who didn't get money from their parents started stealing gas out of other peoples cars. One time we stole all the gas out of the school buses, it was pretty funny. And it wasn't that wrong. But if everyone goes around stealing everyone else's gas it's gonna screw things up big time.

Its really just a fact of life now, it aint gonna go away any time soon....... plus for the average young person who is already strapped for cash and cant afford to splash out €15 on an album every week, they wont really feel too bad about getting an album albeit an 'invisible' album.......... this is just the harsh truth...... im being a bit of a devils advocate here.

It is just a fact of life now but at one time in the U.S. it was a fact of life that black people weren't aloud to eat in restaurants or drink from the same fountains as white people. Killing Jewish people became quite fashionable at one time in Germany. A person could be arrested for not having any money on him and a woman wouldn't think about going out in public without a hat without causing a scandal.
These were all ideas that were excepted by most people but obviously they needed to change.

IT'S POSSIBLE!

Sorry for harpin' on ya bro but I think you can take it. You really said it well....and I think you already understand it.

[billg1]

It seems to me that this is a generational issue....... i'm only 22 and an inspiring musician (why else would i be on taxi!) and to be honest 90% of my friends illegally download music off the web. I have to admit i have done it before myself.... a lot of the bands my friends would download are already very popular artists who have made millions......

personally i dont see anything too wrong with me downloading for example..... ehhhhh 'dark side of the moon' because it has sold millions all around the world and that wont make much of a difference to the pockets of waters, gilmour and co.

Its really just a fact of life now, it aint gonna go away any time soon....... plus for the average young person who is already strapped for cash and cant afford to splash out €15 on an album every week, they wont really feel too bad about getting an album albeit an 'invisible' album.......... this is just the harsh truth...... im being a bit of a devils advocate here.

As i said theres nothing i dont want to be in my life except a musician but i fully accept the fact that people can 'steal' music off the web.

It's not a generational issue . . . unless what your saying is that all people under a certain age are thieves. How can you justify stealing based on the wealth of the people from which your stealing? Does that really make sense to you? When a "poor" theif goes into a "rich" neighborhood and breaks into the cars of wealthy people to steal from them I guess that's ok? That kind of thinking is so wrong that it honestly blows my mind.

I have music for sale on the net & sometimes make a few bucks. I also struggle to pay my bills. If I caught you stealing my music I would kick your ass just the same as I would if I caught you breaking into my house in the middle of the night to steal something . . . no difference, a theif is a theif & stating that you believe it's ok doesn't make it so. You said "to be honest 90% of my friiends illegally download music" . . .
sorry, but your not honest & neither are your friends.