The publics attitude on piracy

[Hookjaw Brown]

Mojobone says it best - Odds are, nobody will ever make it, but everybody has a chance!

Only 5% of musicians make money, enough to live on. I have a friend, who in the 80's was on a major Nashville label, CMA presenter, four albums, good charts.....was cleaning my drummers house one day to put some food on her kids table. She was $350,000 in debt to her label.

I have another friend who plays bass for Taj Mahal and gets to go every year with the boat band on the Blues Cruise, has two Grammies, and does ok. He is a professional performing and recording musician. He even writes and sings on some albums his band has put out as solo work. I hear him occasionally on Indie Radio.

These are two extremes but most of my musician friends work day jobs, and play on the weekends for fun. They don't quite understand my drive to perform original music since there are so many good songs already out there. I understand why.

I don't need the thieves. I cherish my fans, send them bits of new music, announcement of gigs, chances to buy new music and CD's, personally sign them with notes. I figure that if I can get a few thousand people to like my music out of the billions of them out there, I can make a living. I love the internet and its possibilities - the Chance to Make It.

Course I could be wrong...........

[elser]

[

It's not a generational issue . . . unless what your saying is that all people under a certain age are thieves. How can you justify stealing based on the wealth of the people from which your stealing? Does that really make sense to you? When a "poor" theif goes into a "rich" neighborhood and breaks into the cars of wealthy people to steal from them I guess that's ok? That kind of thinking is so wrong that it honestly blows my mind.

I have music for sale on the net & sometimes make a few bucks. I also struggle to pay my bills. If I caught you stealing my music I would kick your ass just the same as I would if I caught you breaking into my house in the middle of the night to steal something . . . no difference, a theif is a theif & stating that you believe it's ok doesn't make it so. You said "to be honest 90% of my friiends illegally download music" . . .
sorry, but your not honest & neither are your friends.

I don't think that's helpful. If we're going to win this war we have to change the way people think about it. When you're trying to change the way people think, threatening them and making them into an enemy isn't the best way to go about it.

[billg1]

My intent was not to threaten anyone (I'm a peace-nik). My itent was to underscore the fact that all stealing is the same and has consequences. If someone doesn't understand what they're doing is illegal and wrong that's one thing. This poster admitted he and his friends did it & as such admitted he knew it was illegal. Then "justifies" it by explaining that most of his friends don't have the money to buy a cd and that taking from people who had more was ok.

I just moved from a neighborhood where my car was broken into three times. The house two doors down was burglarized twice. I carried a "dummy" wallet I could turnover in the case of a robbery because there had been so many muggings. I can promise you that the theives in my neighborhood coulldn't afford the things they were stealing either. This person's comments struck me no differently than if someone told me they had broken into my car to steal my radio because they couldn't afford one. And besides, I have another car . . . two cars, and they don't even have one. I won't even miss that radio, heck, probably have insurance to cover it so I'm really at no loss at all.

This poster's admitted ideas and motives are the same as any commoin thief. If someone has something you can't afford to buy it does not give you the right to take it. If someone has more than you it does not give you the right to take from them.

This goes beyond the illegal downloading of music, it's assuming the mindset of a thief and trying to justify it. Why should that be tolerated?

A thief who KNOWS what he's doing is wrong but can justify it to himself will continue until they are caught & punished, that's the point I was trying to make.

You can try to reason with people who don't understand what they are doing, but a thief should know there are consequences and should be punished when caught. And that's not a threat, it's justice, it's the law. The "law" needs to give him an ass-kicking . . . is that better?

[billg1]

Mojobone says it best - Odds are, nobody will ever make it, but everybody has a chance!

Only 5% of musicians make money, enough to live on. I have a friend, who in the 80's was on a major Nashville label, CMA presenter, four albums, good charts.....was cleaning my drummers house one day to put some food on her kids table. She was $350,000 in debt to her label.

I have another friend who plays bass for Taj Mahal and gets to go every year with the boat band on the Blues Cruise, has two Grammies, and does ok. He is a professional performing and recording musician. He even writes and sings on some albums his band has put out as solo work. I hear him occasionally on Indie Radio.

These are two extremes but most of my musician friends work day jobs, and play on the weekends for fun. They don't quite understand my drive to perform original music since there are so many good songs already out there. I understand why.

I don't need the thieves. I cherish my fans, send them bits of new music, announcement of gigs, chances to buy new music and CD's, personally sign them with notes. I figure that if I can get a few thousand people to like my music out of the billions of them out there, I can make a living. I love the internet and its possibilities - the Chance to Make It.

Course I could be wrong...........

A person can "make it" even when they haven't "made it"!. I haven't had a "day Job" since 1987 and yet I've been able to make a living MOSTLY on what would be considered intellectual property (custom jingles, ad copy, etc.). I'm extremely greatful to have not had to punch someone else's timeclock and I'm fully aware that without intellectual property protection I probably would have been.

I have more than a passing interest in the current attitudes about file sharing, copyright, etc. & I can get pretty bristled when people don't repect the law in those regards . . . I don't want to have made it this far just to end up driving a Taxi (been there done that too!).

[themadpad]

My intent was not to threaten anyone (I'm a peace-nik). My itent was to underscore the fact that all stealing is the same and has consequences. If someone doesn't understand what they're doing is illegal and wrong that's one thing. This poster admitted he and his friends did it & as such admitted he knew it was illegal. Then "justifies" it by explaining that most of his friends don't have the money to buy a cd and that taking from people who had more was ok.


Its not that im trying to 'justify' it i'm merely trying to get you into the mindset of a teenager who owns a laptop, likes music and is a bit strapped for cash..... im not saying its right what their doing, but to be honest the illegal downloaders just dont give a crap.

Elser,
If your anything like me, and I'll bet you are, you want to find new and undiscovered music from up and coming bands, but I'll bet you guys are downloading their music for free as well.

To be honest anytime i have downloaded music it has been pretty well known bands so i dont personally know if you would be able to find 'up and coming bands' on file sharing sites...... maybe, maybe not?



It is just a fact of life now but at one time in the U.S. it was a fact of life that black people weren't aloud to eat in restaurants or drink from the same fountains as white people. Killing Jewish people became quite fashionable at one time in Germany. A person could be arrested for not having any money on him and a woman wouldn't think about going out in public without a hat without causing a scandal.
These were all ideas that were excepted by most people but obviously they needed to change.

IT'S POSSIBLE!

Sorry for harpin' on ya bro but I think you can take it. You really said it well....and I think you already understand it.

Thank you! But i think the persecution of jews and racism towards blacks are issues on a MUCH bigger scale than me downloading 'cant stop till you get enough' by Michael Jackson..... i know your just saying that this downloading thing can change in the future, but its not the worst thing to happen in the world.

One more thing, i live in Ireland and i think that its actually easier and less chance of getting caught 'stealing' music than in america.... you guys seem to have strichter regulations.... and obviously your goverment and technology etc is pretty intrusive enough to be able to keep an eye on everyone and their going ons.

P.s. i have no idea how to do that quotes thing properly so some of my replies are actually in the yellow box!

[elser]

My intent was not to threaten anyone (I'm a peace-nik). My itent was to underscore the fact that all stealing is the same and has consequences. If someone doesn't understand what they're doing is illegal and wrong that's one thing. This poster admitted he and his friends did it & as such admitted he knew it was illegal. Then "justifies" it by explaining that most of his friends don't have the money to buy a cd and that taking from people who had more was ok.

I just moved from a neighborhood where my car was broken into three times. The house two doors down was burglarized twice. I carried a "dummy" wallet I could turnover in the case of a robbery because there had been so many muggings. I can promise you that the theives in my neighborhood coulldn't afford the things they were stealing either. This person's comments struck me no differently than if someone told me they had broken into my car to steal my radio because they couldn't afford one. And besides, I have another car . . . two cars, and they don't even have one. I won't even miss that radio, heck, probably have insurance to cover it so I'm really at no loss at all.

This poster's admitted ideas and motives are the same as any commoin thief. If someone has something you can't afford to buy it does not give you the right to take it. If someone has more than you it does not give you the right to take from them.

This goes beyond the illegal downloading of music, it's assuming the mindset of a thief and trying to justify it. Why should that be tolerated?

A thief who KNOWS what he's doing is wrong but can justify it to himself will continue until they are caught & punished, that's the point I was trying to make.

You can try to reason with people who don't understand what they are doing, but a thief should know there are consequences and should be punished when caught. And that's not a threat, it's justice, it's the law. The "law" needs to give him an ass-kicking . . . is that better?

I don't think it's as black and white as you make it. The mind of all thief's are not the same, their are different levels to the hardness and some are more susceptible to reform than others. The first time I went to jail I was 18, it was for walking out on a meal and then fighting with the cops who arrested me. I stole gas habitually.
But my brothers were breaking into peoples houses and stealing as much as they could get their hands on, as were many of my friends. My moms boyfriend was a drug dealer and threatened us all with a gun if we ever touched his stash, my brothers stole it anyways and they said he almost killed them for it.
I got in lots more trouble along the way, but I eventually reformed. People can change. I doubt if Madcap is anywhere near the level of criminal I was, he might be but I doubt it.

Thank you! But i think the persecution of jews and racism towards blacks are issues on a MUCH bigger scale than me downloading 'cant stop till you get enough' by Michael Jackson..... i know your just saying that this downloading thing can change in the future, but its not the worst thing to happen in the world.

Madcap, I guess I didn't make myself clear. Of course I'm not comparing illegal downloading to racism, that's why I also included the statement about women wearing hats. The point, is that what is considered common place and a normal thing to do in one culture at a certain time can change. The only thing that will prevent things from changing is our own inaction.

[billg1]

I believe a thief that steals $5 would probably steal $500 if he could get away with it, and I believe someone who steals will usually keep doing it until they get caught or have some kind of "awakening". I think jail wakes up a lot of people.

It's a hard call determining the level of theivery when it comes to something like intellectual property because it's going to be more important to some than others. The worst thing is that there are people now who really don't believe there is intellectual property . . .

Once enough people embrace that idea & the laws change you can kiss goodbye everything from copyrights to patents. Stop and think for a minute where the world would be without the financial incentives a person gains from their ideas.

Laws are really of no use unless they can be enforced and unless there are consequences for breaking them. Most the kids who are illegally downloading will stop when they are caught and punished and not before.

[mojobone]

I don't believe 'right and wrong' are cultural, as every known human culture has this concept. (the devil's in the details, heh) I was raised to believe in moral absolutes, and I'm still fairly certain there's a right and a wrong thing to do in any situation, (usually one difficult right thing, and several easier wrong things, heh) but I also believe that a more nuanced appreciation of morality's finer points should be part of our human development. We raise our children on a 'need to know' basis; at seven we're told lying is a sin and we should never lie, but hardly anybody survives adolescence without learning to lie effectively, it is in fact a necessary skill for functioning in human society or any human relationship. (I never lie to my cats; on the other hand, they never ask me if their new collar makes them look fat)

Copyright infringement really isn't quite the same as stealing; it may not even meet the legal definition for conversion. The person harmed still has the thing you appropriated for your own use; they're not deprived of the use of the thing, only the right to earn monies from the copying thereof, and the thing that has fundamentally changed is that it now costs essentially nothing to make that copy. A digital music file is nothing but a series of ones and zeroes that describe a thing, not the thing itself, and it needn't be attached to any physical media. (until we want to listen to it, heh)

Sadly, that file's metadata don't include the years of hard living, heartaches, joy, agony and despair that go into writing a great musical work, nor the sacrifices made to achieve the level of skill necessary to put it into a physical format for the enjoyment of others. I've said this from a lot of stages: "The music is always free; we get paid for hauling all this gear around, heh." I think it's important to give our fans our story and a reason to pay. If they're ignorant, maybe it's up to us to inform them. It's our livelihood we're talking about, after all.

[Len911]

That's probably true, the law is probably the collective right and wrongs of a culture. The individual's sense of right and wrong are probably from a deeper well. I don't think children have to be taught to tell the truth, they learn rather quickly the consequences for telling the truth. If a kid tells you, you stink, you probably do,lol! Then a parent usually scolds them for not having any manners. It's probably just a matter of education for the most part. The virtual world is a little different from the real world. In the real world you have to sit quietly and listen to a song whether you like it or not, in the virtual world, you don't have to. Today on the news, the Missouri legislature wants to pass a new law concerning bullying on facebook and having the schools to police it. Gee, what happened to education? It just seems to me if you can't teach a kid about bullying, what and why it happens, and how to deal with it, without throwing some poor bully kid in prison, you might as well just close the school and lay off the teachers, and fancy administrators, because they are obviously inept! If it isn't done already, I would imagine having a school program in junior high, sponsored by artists, record labels and the pros, would probably have a bigger impact on the culture of illegal downloads than anything. I don't think leaving it up to the parents, schools, or suing kids is going to make that much difference, other than finding better ways to skirt the law and being bitter about it. I remember in the 80's in Italy there were street vendors selling bootleg cassettes.