Should my paid producer also get co-writers credit/share???

[mojobone]

I think Len has the right of it. He's asking for a co-write and a credit, IF there's collaboration; jes' make sure that you and he are on the same page about what that means going in, and write it down, so there are no surprises. (he wouldn't be entitled to the publisher's share under any circumstance, UNLESS he's also the publisher, and that would be a separate agreement) Have your producer strike the language from the agreement, if it bothers you, and get work for hire agreements signed by him and the musicians he hires. As the writer, you decide what level of collaboration you're comfortable with, and you can always decline any suggestions that would alter the copyrighted aspects of your music; the lyrics, and the notes and rhythms of the melody. (you can't copyright a beat or a bassline, unless the bassline is the only significant melody) But in the long run, it pays to be honest with yourself and reasonable in your dealings. If the guy does something to make your song 100% more marketable, you should cut him in for half; you don't want a reputation as 'another Paul Simon'.

[rnrmachine]

Bridgette you smelled something fishy.. GOOD FOR YOU, you were right!! I mean/say this with all due humility and respect for another fellow human being... but Len and Mojo are wrong. I would just end this post here but I feel the need to try and educate for future understanding. Because I care.. NO other reason...

Of course no one has to take my word for it... or you rely on your gut instincts for that matter Bridgette, although we obviously agree something is wrong with it... consult an attorney.

My brother is a lawyer and we often discuss stuff, when he calls. He'll tell me about cases and stuff and tell me what happened (as long as he don't tell me any names he can tell me all he wants). We often laugh about how words and sentences are interpreted. Interpretation is everything in court. So ANYONE that tells you different does NOT know what it is all about.

Real contracts are HUGE for a reason. Slick lawyers trying to protect themselves from slick lawyers... Most people laugh when they hear Bill Clinton say, "It depends on what the definition of the word is.. is." I assure you, he was DEAD SERIOUS and the court HAS to take him that way. That is what lawyers do... do not kid yourself. Ever hear about someone getting of on a technicality??? I am confident it PAINS the judge to let someone go that they KNOW is guilty, but their hands are tied. They MUST follow laws, contracts, etc... if someone enters into an agreement which is BLATANTLY meant to deprive someone of something. The judge can agree it is an absolutely wretched contract, but that means nothing. Unless there was due course for someone to back out of the contract, such as a "breach of contract", he MUST follow it and award accordingly, after all, YOU signed it so YOU agreed to it. Naivety nor stupidity would NOT be a defense either. So long as he finishes the production work on your songs. NO way would a "breach" be awarded and Collaboration would be established.. read on as to how I KNOW for a fact this is true.

Btw, Mojo, You are wrong about the publishing. He would NOT have to publish it.. Read that line carefully please.. and TRY to think like a lawyer. He is saying that IF he "collaborates" he is entitled to publishing credit. So he circumvents the need to be a publisher in order to receive publishing credit. It's right there in black and white.. how can you not see it??? If that line is NOT removed then Collaboration MUST BE defined as to how it ascertains to that specific contract for Bridgette to protect herself or it will default to ANY dictionary/definition a lawyer wants to use.

Collaborate according to Webster online: I didn't bother to look at any others:
1: to work jointly with others or together especially in an intellectual endeavor <-- qualifies him for %50 writers share just as the producer. Good luck finding a lawyer that could beat it.
2: to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one's country and especially an occupying force <-- not relevant but usable if the lawyer is slick enough, no real need to though with Definition 1.
3: to cooperate with an agency or instrumentality with which one is not immediately connected <---- According to that definition as well as #1. HE CAN take 50% of your rights and you could not stop him... WHY should YOU need to trust HIM but he don't need to trust you?? Omit that crap.. there is NO reason for it to be in there. It is TAPE ON A DOOR it is "A Loop Hole". I can tell you he would NEVER sign that if the shoe was on the other foot!!! I don't need to know him to know that.. All I have to do is read what he wrote.. or worse, had a lawyer write to intentionally make it easy to rip someone off. I can have a local attorney write up a contract for $50. If I told him, make it easy for me to do this or that in court if I need too.. he would.

Another thought... IF we're all supposed to be all "TRUSTY" of each other and we're just a big group of loving musicians who would NEVER hurt or steal anyone or anything from another fellow musician... Then I ask, WhyTF does he even need a contract to be signed.. do the job and she will pay you... what ya need a contract for at all? ... Because she might not pay him you say? So he needs the contract for his protection you say? Well, Bridgette needs to protect herself as well and that contract is ONE-SIDED on it's protection AND it is DESIGNED to TAKE!!

So I hope I have shown the dangers here and how serious they are. Trust NO ONE in contracts. Contracts are there BECAUSE people don't trust. If someone is making you sign a contract it is because they do NOT trust you, WHY one earth should you now trust them?... Make sure they are properly worded to be FAIR to BOTH parties and that will show you to be a good person. Trust is for boyfriends and girlfriends, families, etc... not contracts.

Rob

Len, you don't seem get it.. publishing credit but no share?? seriously? How can someone be credited as the Publisher, but then not legally be entitled to a share? Other then selling their rights of course... So.. can I be a song writer too and not get a share? I definitely need this explained to me. In case I am the one not getting it...

[Len911]

Rob, your brother is an attorney? Well good, maybe he can weigh in on this.

[rnrmachine]

Rob, your brother is an attorney? Well good, maybe he can weigh in on this.

If you read the last time I called him and asked him about someone else's contract you would see why I only call him for myself now... He would only agree with me anyway. LOL I do detect a hint of non belief... frankly I don't give a shit if you believe me or not.. my interpretation of that line in that contract is SOUND.. if you can't see it then I have nothing else to say because I already said it all.

Here is the thread http://forums.taxi.com/topic22042.html?hilit=contract

I asked a lawyer.. and he was MAD when he found out I wasn't asking for myself and he would blow a lid if he found out I was telling you guys I even have a lawyer for a brother.

He actually hung up on me and said, "I don't have time for this"

He has a lot less compassion for people who sign lame contracts then I do.

He has plenty of compassion though.. he spent the summer working non profit for people who DESERVE disability but are denied because that is what they do. Or did I just make that up??

Hmm trust some producer that is making you sign a contract (in other words he don't trust you)... but let's not trust Rob who has NOTHING to gain whether you sign it or not.. ROFLMAO you guys are just amazing sometimes. HAHA SAME crap in that thread I linked.. same crap...

I do have very good reading comprehension btw. I am not going to brag on myself but let's just say, it's well above average. Or am I lying about that?? and I can't actually read or write at all?

Rob

[Len911]

Rob, I honestly didn't imply any disbelief. As you can see from even this post I usually give people the benefit of the doubt that they are sincere and truthful. I must have missed the other post you referenced, and I don't remember it, and wasn't aware your brother was an attorney before now, if I did I certainly don't remember it. I just figured what the hey, if your brother is an attorney, then he should be the expert weighing in, I'm only an opinion in the absence of an expert. If I don't agree with you always, it's not anything personal, it's just for the sake of discussion. I am very close to my Dad, but I can't remember the last time we've ever agreed on anything, well maybe a couple things, not much though.

[rnrmachine]

Rob, I honestly didn't imply any disbelief. As you can see from even this post I usually give people the benefit of the doubt that they are sincere and truthful. I must have missed the other post you referenced, and I don't remember it, and wasn't aware your brother was an attorney before now, if I did I certainly don't remember it. I just figured what the hey, if your brother is an attorney, then he should be the expert weighing in, I'm only an opinion in the absence of an expert. If I don't agree with you always, it's not anything personal, it's just for the sake of discussion. I am very close to my Dad, but I can't remember the last time we've ever agreed on anything, well maybe a couple things, not much though.

HAHA, Parent... are parents...

Sorry I got a bit sarcastic at the end of my post there... I suppose I read too much into yours and I acted a bit on the old thread with the "trust thing"... I am just getting frustrated. I know I see that contract properly and I am afraid for her. Nothing more.

I am afraid for her because SHE wrote those songs, NOT him and he would have to do an awful lot to be worthy of 50%. When someone has an idea and it is a good one.. how much easier is it to expand upon that idea, then it is to come up with the idea in the first place.. I just have a lot of trouble with people "jumpin' on board" and wanting a BIG ole "piece of the pie" and he wants a BIG chunk.. especially since he is getting paid a flat fee per song AND not giving any package discount to boot!! .. WTH is that??

He knew what he was handing her... that is not a, "oops... sorry" moment.

Rob

[mojobone]

Maybe we can get Ern to weigh in here about the number of artist deals that get killed by paranoid non-entertainment attorneys who think they need to fight tooth and nail for their client and never give an inch. (and have a pathological need to be 'right' all the time) This is business, not a capital criminal defense, and it involves negotiation; it's difficult to negotiate from a position of, "You're trying to screw me!" I have nothing more to add to my original post; I agree with some of what Len said and some of what Rob said, and I am not a lawyer, thank God.

[rnrmachine]

That line in a contract is a BIG red flag, paranoia has nothing to do with it. We're also talking a local producer here... we're not talking top producer wanting her song on his album and she wants to produce it (I caught that Taxi episode too)... we're not talking top publisher either... where wanting too much will ruin her... let alone get her a "Paul Simon" rep.. THAT IS getting carried away and quite ridiculous on your part. That is Far more "out there" then I am being... I am being realistic... He is JUST a local producer, a nobody in the real music world wanting too much flat rate dollar plus % when frankly, he don't have the reputation to deserve it. There are other producers with solid reputations that will give her a better deal AND the reputation to go with it... that is all I am saying.. so what if her telling him "take that line out" kills the deal. It's not like it will ruin her... It could save her... and he is NOT the only producer in the world.

If a studio wanted too much money per hour you would go to a different studio wouldn't you? Such as, it's a studio that $25 per hour would be too much but they are asking for $100 as if they are some Nashville pro studio... and it's just some terd in his basement... WHO CARES if the deal gets killed... there is too much better out there.

The guy produced a couple local CDs, whoopie ding... it's not hard to look like a big fish in a small pond. I am being realistic!!!

Rob

[mojobone]

Rob, I'm jes' gonna lay this out, here: until you've heard which CDs this guy has produced, you don't know squat about what his services are worth, bottom line. It so happens, in my local market, there's a Guitar Center national Guitarmageddon winner, a runner-up on America's Most Talented Kid, one of punk rock's most-respected producers who's worked with the likes of Billy Joe of Green Day, among others, and two second-place winners on the first edition of America's Got Talent. We also have a multiple Grammy-winning producer-engineer who also writes for EQ, one of the younger leading lights in classical guitar, (Chaconne Klaverenga) and one of the most unique contestants to ever grace American Idol, Amanda Overmyer; we have also provided the world with three bona fide "rock stars", in Axl Rose, Izzy Stradlin and the late Shannon Hoon. Please explain to me how 'being local' makes you suck?

[eeoo]

Mojo you're being modest if you're talking about Indiana. Aren't John Mellencamp and Wes Montgomery from your neck of the woods, couple more local boys?