I don t get it

[rnrmachine]

Hey eeoo,

I didn't feel like you were, or even Mojo, for that matter, even when he said he was. Nothing that either of you two said was bad advice imho... I just felt it wasn't very good for him at this time. I am just trying to stress to him that... he could go to a number of schools and they would all teach him the same mic techniques for the most part. Because the basic techniques are the tried and true ones. Just like the first mic most of the schools will start you on in the SM 57 and with good reason. There are tried and true methods which are taught in ANY class and I personally would like him to learn those basics before he starts putting a mic between his legs while sitting, or holding the mic, etc...

What you said eeoo is something I have encountered myself... My first time ever recording in a studio... I had to tape my guitar strings down so they would stay quiet and then play it so I could sing the songs right. I just couldn't sing them songs right without my guitar around my neck and my fingers doing the motions.

And Mojo... if it sounds good then it probably is, is a very good statement for people with well trained ears. Well trained from years of practice. But for a newcomer I just think it isn't very good advice. The first time someone said that to me, after I started trying to record professionally, my first thought was... I think all my sh+t sounds pretty good. So I decided that I cannot listen to that statement, because the stuff I thought sounded good, apparently wasn't. I realized, after sifting through a lot of BS, that I had to learn what a balanced mix was, and how to do one, FIRST. Then I could learn my own style after that. And unlearn all the bad habits I had learned doing live music... where, If it sounds good then it is good... was the golden rule. And all those tricks I had learned to eliminate feedback... useless in a studio... completely useless!

Rob

[eeoo]

Yup, we're on the same page. Ya gotta know the rules before (or so that) you can break 'em! Good stuff Rob.

eo

[mojobone]

Hey eeoo,

I didn't feel like you were, or even Mojo, for that matter, even when he said he was. Nothing that either of you two said was bad advice imho... I just felt it wasn't very good for him at this time. I am just trying to stress to him that... he could go to a number of schools and they would all teach him the same mic techniques for the most part. Because the basic techniques are the tried and true ones. Just like the first mic most of the schools will start you on in the SM 57 and with good reason. There are tried and true methods which are taught in ANY class and I personally would like him to learn those basics before he starts putting a mic between his legs while sitting, or holding the mic, etc...

What you said eeoo is something I have encountered myself... My first time ever recording in a studio... I had to tape my guitar strings down so they would stay quiet and then play it so I could sing the songs right. I just couldn't sing them songs right without my guitar around my neck and my fingers doing the motions.

And Mojo... if it sounds good then it probably is, is a very good statement for people with well trained ears. Well trained from years of practice. But for a newcomer I just think it isn't very good advice. The first time someone said that to me, after I started trying to record professionally, my first thought was... I think all my sh+t sounds pretty good. So I decided that I cannot listen to that statement, because the stuff I thought sounded good, apparently wasn't. I realized, after sifting through a lot of BS, that I had to learn what a balanced mix was, and how to do one, FIRST. Then I could learn my own style after that. And unlearn all the bad habits I had learned doing live music... where, If it sounds good then it is good... was the golden rule. And all those tricks I had learned to eliminate feedback... useless in a studio... completely useless!

Rob

Rob, my point isn't about technique, so much; it's more like, if we all follow the same rules, who leads? Who discovers something new? Of course, you're right, but my ears are thirsty. (and maybe a little tired, heh) There is a huge difference between my trained ear and that of the common listener, but we both want to hear the same thing; a hit.

[rnrmachine]

I agree completely Mojo, If everyone did everything exactly the same... where would the diversity come into play? What boring world it would be if there was only 1 drum kit, 1 acoustic guitar, 1 microphone, 1 stereo system for playback etc... Different sounds are just as important, if not more important sometimes, then the context of the song itself. At least to me and it seems like you would agree... that I am agreeing with you... LOL There are MANY songs I like mainly for the sound.

One of the Taxi webcats comes to mind when talking about mic placement on drums. Micheal was talking with some dude, I can't recall his name, but he was the guy who had engineered with him in the past and they obviously have known each other for many years. He has a recording setup in his garage with drums etc.... Anyway, he specifically mentioned about the standard of putting a mic less then an inch away from the snare facing the head... and then he went onto say, go ahead and move it back some and see what ya get. So he was talking about experimenting which I completely agree with is essential and helps someone find their unique place!! But he also referred to the normally "best position" to place a mic when recording a snare drum. And I believe, along with many others I am sure, everyone recording drums should know this position and work with it regularly doing many mixes before breaking these standards. Get some real practice in first. Once you are aware of all the aspects of how to get a solid mix using proper, proven techniques, then breaking the rules actually should become a regular habit... imho. After all, how else will a person learn the differences of what moving a mic 1" will do if they don't do it? A person could spend hours trying to get a sound in the mix and all they would have had to do is move the mic slightly and they would have been done.

It's just become apparent to me that certain things need to be practiced and learned so you can know where the mic needs to be moved in order to achieve what you are after... which should be small moves.. not big ones.

On the other hand... if you are just going for whatever sounds cool and just winging it... trying to let the sound just gel on it's own as you go... trying to come up with your own unique sound? Then trying some crazy rule breaking stuff is just what the doctor order imho... but if you are a beginner doing this. Chances are you will just fail miserably because you will cause things to happen that are not conducive to a well balanced mix. A mix that will sound good on all systems... even if they have their own style within that well balanced standard.

Good conversation guys, helps keep my brain sharp and thinking outside my own little box.

Rob

BTW eeoo, I agree we're definitely on the same page... and I, to this day, still feel more comfortable singing my old band songs while playing the guitar. LOL

[danieleinad]

I don t really know, but I have a feeling , that maybe the professionals have a secret or secrets in that . Like with food and restaurants , sometimes professionals might have secrets how do do certain stuff, sometimes it might be very simple, so too with mixing (maybe it could be something whivh is so simple to them, that it comes natural). Or it s just equipments , or expecience , or everything together . Anyhow , i still didn t get a professional sound , but I am doing better. I am still looking for a thing, tip, trick , or whatever, that might make a big difference .

Daniel

[danieleinad]

BTW , you guys are professionals, and I am very lucky that a beginner like me get advices from you
Daniel

[mojobone]

I believe it was the great Rickie Lee Jones who said, "You can't break the rules, 'til you know how to play the game"; all I'm sayin' is every room and situation is different, and dogma never made a great record.

[Len911]

don t really know, but I have a feeling , that maybe the professionals have a secret or secrets in that . Like with food and restaurants , sometimes professionals might have secrets how do do certain stuff, sometimes it might be very simple, so too with mixing (maybe it could be something whivh is so simple to them, that it comes natural). Or it s just equipments , or expecience , or everything together . Anyhow , i still didn t get a professional sound , but I am doing better. I am still looking for a thing, tip, trick , or whatever, that might make a big difference .

Daniel I know when I cook if I use real butter, not margarine, everything tastes better,lol! The single most important ingredient is equipment, though I'm sure we all struggle and compromise with this. Of course this is all assuming you have the song, vocal, musicianship, just the recording of it. You obviously can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, a nice leather one, perhaps. Back when I started there was less of a blur between semi and pro gear, and often times the most minute differences made the most difference. One lesson I learned is that if a piece of gear doesn't improve your sound as soon as you plug it in, no tweaking in the world is going to change it's inherent sound character. I think most of the tip books were sold to people who bought the cheapest gear, thinking it would help make the gear sound better. I doubt seriously that anyone who walked into a dream studio would ever be wondering where their tip book was. Beware of reviews that claim a product sounds like a product costing 10 times as much, very rarely is that ever true, or an ad that claims their el cheapo mic was used by a megastar in the studio, it probably was, on the kick drum,lol! I don't mean to be discouraging, but that is the bottom line, and it is controversial because most of us don't have the means to make such large investments, though there are routes that get pretty darn close and even close enough in many cases. Like I said before, it is a compromise as far as equipment goes. If I were to start over and had the money, I would choose, in order of preference, the microphone, mic preamp, compressor, a/d converter and then go from there.

[mojobone]

Um, I would say the biggest difference between a good recording and a bad one is technique, not the gear. Check out the first three Sufjan Stevens albums; he had a cheap hard disc recorder, some inexpensive dynamic mics and a few good instruments, recorded in a dorm room. Of course you want gear that's professional grade and appropriate to the situation, but fits your budget; this can be done, but it requires a little more research and sweat equity. It's very different when speaking of the difference between a good recording and a great recording, where the two most important variables are the room THEN the gear, cuz the recording technique is assumed to be at least decent enough to achieve a good result and not screw up a great one. (of course, the song and the performance count for more than any of the above)

[rnrmachine]

No doubt that gear plays a very important factor but I agree with Mojo that technique plays a larger role. I have spent the last few years reading article after article about different techniques. What they did to this drum, or that guitar, or said vocal to achieve the sound that they finally decided was the sound they wanted. There are a lot of techniques that go into these recordings. These guys would try ANYTHING at least once... seriously anything. For instance... let's say that you own only inexpensive compressor plugins that don't sound very good when you over compress. BUT you want that "over compressed" sound... what do you do? You apply a technique of necessity... use 2 compressors and have each one compressing as much as it can before it sounds cheap. IF that is more then you need you might try having the first compressor do less compression and the 2nd do most of the work. You can try vice-verse as well.

Daniel, being a beginner like you are the best advice I can give you is to put 1 mic like I said, just above your mouth while you are standing. Sing into that mic and move a little bit continuously. Meaning sing a part, then move, sing a part then move and keep doing this until you find the spot that you sound the BEST in. This will be the "sweet spot" and where you should stay put in for most of your vocals. It may be too far to sing softly or too close to sing real loud... IF you have BIG dynamics as a singer then you will have to practice moving in and out of the mic. These will be small moves, I am not talking 3 feet of difference. That will be too much and the recorded signal will sound too different to be usable... most of the time. The sweet spot for you on your mic might only be a foot or less of movement to stay in that spot.

Now, once you have recorded and you want to practice using FX on your vocals, make 3 busses, one with Reverb, one with Delay and one with Chorus. Name them appropriately. Now, create a send from your main vocal track to each buss. Keep the sends turned up fairly high so you have the FX input engaged well. In other words, you want it to be a strong signal going into the FX. Use the Buss Fader to control the amount of FX in the mix... NOT the "sends" on the tracks. The send should always be fairly powerful... at first... as you are learning. ONCE you get the feel for using FX in this manner then you should try using the "sends" to create different levels of FX. Because this will sound different as well. You shouldn't compress before FX units such as delay and reverb because allowing natural dynamics to increase/decrease the FX level at the input will sound more natural. After all, if you hear someone singing in a Hall or Theater as they get louder you will hear more ambiance and as they get softer... less ambiance. This of course counts on the fact you are going for a realistic sound.

The delay: more often then not, when you want to hide that you are using it, should be a short timed delay with a single or double slap-back. You should tempo sync the delay as well... NO feedback at all UNLESS you choose to use little to no reverb. Very rarely does excessive delay feedback work well with a fair amount of reverb. It tends to be WAY too much with both, BUT this is your time to learn and decide what you want and it should be song specific. I am just telling you "in general".

The Reverb: should fit the song. Quite often the reverb you use on the vocal will make the song... Meaning, if you want close up intimate sounding vocals then the reverb used should be VERY small. (as well as singing close up on the mic, but watch for the proximity effect from being too close to the mic). Vocal booth small up to small studio room small. If you want large/grand sounding vocals then you want larger reverbs. Hall sounds work well BUT Plate reverbs have been proven time and time again to be awesome for vocals. How much you turn up the reverb makes a big difference here as well. Pre-delay is extremely useful in keeping the vocal up front, but yet have a good amount of reverb/ambiance on the vocal.

The Chorus: can actually be ANY modulation type effect such as, but not limited too, flanger and phaser... in stereo or mono form. (all FX can be in stereo or MONO) These FX tend to put the vocals more in your face... the opposite of what reverb and delay does... delay to a less extent then reverb. Chorus will also thicken more a bit like delay does except that it is considered a modulation type effect and delay is not. The difference being, MOST chorus units use a delay, although extremely short times, with a pitch de-tune on the signal to create the "chorus" effect. SO if you use a multi-tap delay with some pitch detunes, you can make a chorus effect. The slight pitch changes is the essential part of a chorusing effect. This is where the lines can blur between these FX units. You wouldn't do this with a delay though unless you know WELL what you are doing... a good chorus unit will be too good on it's own to try and emulate.. it's just more food for thought... so you can experiment. You CAN try using a pitch shifter changing the pitch on the vocal by only a few cents before OR after a delay. It creates a nifty little sound.

That is VERY basic, very limited info on the basic most commonly used vocal FX.. other then EQ and compression of course. Just enough to get you started down the road of more pro sounding vocals. Good Luck in all you do!!

Rob