Drums too mechanical

[jazzstan]

"...drums too mechanical..." was the reason for a recent return. Funny thing is that I only use loops from Big Fish, Drums on Demand, etc, which to my knowledge are all live drums. I also mix and match from with in a "set" , add hits & crashes, with drop-outs of hats & snares ... you know, just to have it realistic. I never use midi-drums, even tho' I have that option with various virtual instruments that I have.

Question 1: are BF & DOD ~not~ real drummers?
Question 2: should I use Sonar's features to sliced & dice and then de-quantize these loops.
..or...
Question 3: should I just forget about it, and beam back to my home planet?

[Len911]

If you are using say, big fish audio samples, you really should be using a sampler to play them back in. Whether or not you use groove monkey or do the midi yourself is up to you. It looks like sonar has an rxp rex thing that looks the nearest thing to a drum sampler as far as I can tell. Cubase calls it's drum sampler groove agent one. I'm not sure that you have to slice and dice and re-quantize, in groove agent one, you just assign each sample a pad, eg. kick, snare, crash, etc. and then use midi to play them back with.
Well I guess you do have to slice and dice if you use anything other than a rex file.
The bottom line is this: samples means a sample player of some sort and midi of some sort for the programming.


*Stan, I think what you were trying to do was much like trying to cut and paste the wav files from like an east-west orchestral sampler, of course you can't do that because they are encrypted, but it would be difficult if not a mess if you did.

[Cruciform]

"Drums on demand" are real drummers. Maybe the screener has heard too many sloppy drums and can't tell a pro, real drummer from a midi loop.

Stan, I do the same as you, mixing it up and layering to add more variety. If this is the sole reason you were returned, I'd be questioning it.

[bigbluebarry]

Hey Stan,

The "drums are too mechanical" doesn't necessarily mean, IMO, that the drums are too "midi" sounding, which based on what you've said, isn't the case here. It's very possible to take loops from "real" drummers and still have your track sound too mechanical if the track itself isn't put together as a drummer would actually play it. Just copy/pasting a series of loops together does not necessarily translate into a realistic sounding drum track. The key is making the part sound like a drummer played it, otherwise, the track can come off sounding too mechanical. And if you're screener is also a drummer then he'll know.

Could you post the track that got returned?

hth,
- Big Blue

[cardell]

Can we hear the track please?

Stuart

[rnrmachine]

I would have to agree with BBB that it doesn't necessarily mean fake. When I played in bands we would often say stuff like that to each other about parts... play this more loose, it's feeling to mechanical... is something that has been said in MANY band practices that I was at.

It could also be that the other instruments are playing the part loosely and that makes the drums sound to mechanical for the part... and or genre. You'll pretty much never hear that in Speed Metal though.... hahaha

Relax dude, you're playing too stiff... is another thing that comes to mind from older practices. My guess is the part didn't gel somehow, but it's hard to tell you exactly what we think without the song.

Good Luck and HTH,

Rob

[jazzstan]

Ok, sorry for the delay in getting this posted. Pesky day-job gets in the way, ya know? Now on re-listening I can hear where maybe eight-notes on the hi-hat might be better, and on some of the breaks, a bit more "flair" and personality from the drummer (double hits on the kick, snare flams, etc) would liven it up a bit. But I'm a guitar player who can only play "steering wheel drums." Maybe that explains the frequent front tire re-alignments, eh?

So.. what would you change? (other than the guitar player, ha ha )

http://www.taximusic.com/stream/stream/ ... _2010_.mp3

PS. Yes, those are intentional 1/6th micro-tones.

[utremifa]

Hi Stan,

I would say, having just listened to your track, (nice guitar playing BTW) that the drum part simply doesn't have enough variation in it. One thing that makes it sound like a looped part (and "mechanical" rather than live) is that all the hits on 2 and 4 are exactly alike. The backbeat is so heavy in that loop that it really draws attention to itself and then the listener thinks OK what else can that drummer do?, but the drummer just keeps smacking 2 and 4 exactly the same way. Also, I would imagine in a bluesy chart like this, that a great drummer would add all sorts of tasty little fills and flourishes here and there--esp. in those breaks, but nothing much happens in those places either.

A thought: this would be a great piece to practice your midi drumming skills. I would suggest that rather than use audio loops, you try developing your own midi part (you could base it on the audio that you have already used), then pass it by a drummer and get some input on it. That is the best way to learn. If you do continue going the audio route, then you may want to toss in a couple variations--a lot of percussion loops come with variations of the main beat, mix things up a bit and find a few fills that work within the style of the piece.

Best of luck,

Vince

[rnrmachine]

I just gave a listen and I would have to agree that one can feel there is something wrong with them as opposed to what a real drummer would feel/sound like if one were to play with the song in it's entirety. I felt the snare sounded a bit too processed for the song as well. Adding to the the problem. Something to keep in mind with such a slow beat, if the drums don't ring out more between the hits and you can't hear the "air" between them, they are going to sound bad. It goes along with the way someone will mix a decay into a song with reverb. Having the reverb die on the snare, just before the next hit, so in a slower song it needs to carry some. Also, if the snare sounds this processed with such a short decay it's just not going to sound normal or decent for this genre. A much more raw sound with plenty of bleed between mics is something I would expect to hear with this song.

I can't recall if you have Kontakt or not, it's hard to keep track of everyone on the forum, but if you do, you might be better off using the jazz kit in it with MIDI controlling it.

Nice tune btw, it's a real shame... the drums are not bad, they just aren't good enough imho. If you list what you do own as far as drum stuff/softsynths, I would be happy to try and point you in a direction that would be more along the lines of what ya need for this.

Rob

[bigbluebarry]

Hey Stan,

I just gave your track a listen. They don't sound bad but I can see why the screener checked the "too mechanical" box. I think Rob's comments were right on the mark too about the sounds themselves. Again, they're not bad, but might not be the best fit for this track/genre. I REALLY enjoyed the guitar work on this track.

I just did an A/B listen of your track against "Leave My Girl Alone" by Stevie Ray Vaughan from his In Step album. If you have a chance, give that track a listen. I think you'll really hear a difference between the drum track on your version compared to that one, particularly as it relates to what Rob was saying in terms of how the drums sound. Performance-wise, what Chris Layton did on the SRV tune isn't overly flashy. It's actually very simple, but the drum track feels alive, like it's breathing, if that makes any sense.

I'd echo what Rob said, if you have a kit that has a bit more of a raw feel with mic bleed as opposed to the tight-compressed sound, I'd try that for this track instead.

hth,
- Big Blue