Bossa Nova with no key change?

[teleblaster]

So I'm putting some stuff together for a Dispatch listing looking for authentic Bossa Novas. I started a thread on P2P for a track I'm working up: http://forums.taxi.com/topic25871.html And a demo of it is here: http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10129099

I plan to call TAXI on Monday and get some clarification. My track is a 16 bar form, that slips out of Cmaj into basically a Dorian Cmin for a measure. I also utilize some 'just barely outside CMajor chords': E7, and A7 to be precise. Curious what everyone else's take is on this? I hope I don't have to put the pure diatonic hand cuffs on my inner Bonfa.

[Casey H]

Nice track tele...
Not my genre but I think I'd bring the bass down a little. As far as whether it's laid back enough or not, I'd say that depends on the 'a la' artist's style.

Regarding 'no key changes'... My understanding, in general, film/TV folks don't like tracks with key changes because then they can't cut and paste parts of the track together easily. If the end of a music track is in D and the beginning in C, those pieces can't be put together. So my educated guess as to what the listing party meant here is to avoid key changes that would make cut and paste difficult-- don't jump a key for heightening at the end, for example.

And, of course, calling Taxi for clarification is a good idea.

Casey

[teleblaster]

Heads up. I just spoke with TAXI. The word is no key changes. That means this track, since it goes from Cmaj into Cmin briefly is off spec. I'll probably send this to a publisher I work with and start something else for this listing.

[crs7string]

I am very familiar with the music of the ala's and to think you can't use any chords that are not diatonic is not within the vocabulary of the genre.

Harmonically, Jobim was drawing on a jazz vocabulary. The idea of substituting an A7#5 for an A minor in the key of C is not a key change it is simply a chord substitution, and part of the vocabulary of boss nova.

Jobim also used a lot of diminished chords with suspensions. The second chord of Corcovado is an Ab diminished chord with an E ( non chordal tone) in the melody. How does this fit into just diatonic harmony?

I think to follow the request of no key changes in a literal sense and provide lackluster diatonic harmonies is very contrary to the genre.

Jobim's most famous tune is probably Girl From Ipanema and the bridge goes thru three key changes before coming back to the home key.

I read the no key change thing as the last A section being in a different key and hence the ability to edit the track and have a logical ending is not possible.

Just my two cents on the subject.


Chuck

[mazz]

+100 on Chuck's post.

Just to add: In general with production music, the piece should end in the same key as it started. When they say "no key changes", in the context of production music, I would translate that to say "don't modulate and never return".

IMO, Jobim hung chords below his melodies and chose them for their emotional effect and the harmonies were derived from the melodies and their modal qualities. I doubt he was thinking theory when he was writing, I would imagine his ear and his heart were guiding him and then folks at Berklee or wherever tried to analyze the changes after the fact (and in fact many times got it wrong, don't trust the Real Book 100%!!!! go back to the source recordings if possible and verify. I've played with many players who learned the tunes by ear pre-Real Book and they often used different (and better) changes!!).

Make the music as good as it can be and have the only constraint that you end in the same key you started with. IMO.

Mazz

[mazz]

Heads up. I just spoke with TAXI. The word is no key changes. That means this track, since it goes from Cmaj into Cmin briefly is off spec. I'll probably send this to a publisher I work with and start something else for this listing.

Obviously I missed this when I posted above.

Hmmmm............. Seems strange to me.

[kclements]

Heads up. I just spoke with TAXI. The word is no key changes. That means this track, since it goes from Cmaj into Cmin briefly is off spec. I'll probably send this to a publisher I work with and start something else for this listing.

Obviously I missed this when I posted above.

Hmmmm............. Seems strange to me.

I agree. It seems very strange.

To me, there is a huge difference between changing keys and chord changes. So does that mean that you can't play a D Maj chord if the song is in C? I have a hard time believing that.

kc

[teleblaster]

Ya, I suspect this is mis-communication. I didn't speak directly with the guy that runs the Dispatch listings. The person I spoke with had to chat with him so I wasn't able to run the actual scenarios by him. My guess is that chord subbing and modulations that are typical for Bossa's are OK as long as the last bar of the form is in the same key as the first. I might make another call...

My plan is to do a broadcast quality version of this track, and mabye one more that's diatonic, probably something based on a minor ii7b5 - V#5 - i with a diversion into the relative major.

[crs7string]

This sounds like a case of either listing party or the person you spoke to at TAXI not understanding the genre.


Heck, with what they're requesting, the screeners would return Jobim and Bonfa!!!!


The second chord change in Ipanema is a V7 chord ( not a minor seventh) which infers a key change.

I can see the box checked on the late great Antonio Carlos critique: returned for using non-diatonic chords. The listing specified no key changes.

What will we see next, a rock listing with the mandate: Absolutely no power fives allowed. All chords must include a third or will be returned.

It would be just absurd

[matto]

Erich, my 10+ years experience as a production music composer tell me the person you talked to at Taxi either misunderstood you or is mistaken.

The chords you mention are not 'key changes' but simply non diatonic chords that are part of many styles, including bossa.

Whenever I have encountered the 'no key changes' instruction in production music (which is quite common) it has always meant that the song can't end in a different key than in started in since that would cause problems for the editors.

Non diatonic chords or brief temporary modulations have never been a problem.

matto