"Broadcast quality is needed (excellent home recordings)"?

[tomosombolac]

Hi, everyone!


I did my best in this little piece of orchestrated music I intend to offer as soundtrack:

http://www.taximusic.com/stream/505825/ ... 0shine.mp3

Wonder if you would be so kind to take some time and comment if this would fullfill the
"Broadcast quality is needed (excellent home recordings will be fine)" requirement?

(1) I would love to hear your oppinion on technical side - mixing, mastering, ...
(2) Your oppinion on quality of samples (violin/brass ensemble, piano, ...) as everything was made in MIDI.

Additional note: lead melody is taken from Croatian traditional song "Sijaj, Sonce, sijaj". There is no copyright issue with that, but - do you think non-original melodies such as this have a potential on listings or should I avoid trah practice on Taxi (as I tend to use a beautiful traditional melodies in my songs )?

Thank you very much in advance
Tomo

http://www.taxi.com/tomosombolac

[RonKujawa]

I don't have a lot of experience in this genre or with orchestral stuff in general, but to my ears this sounded like MIDI instruments. As far as how to get it more real sounding, I don't have a lot to offer, unfortunately. Hopefully someone with more knowledge will chime in with advice on articulations, sample libraries, etc to get you on the right track. I know from limited experience, getting MIDI instruments to sound real can be very difficult, which is why I use them very sparingly. Especially as featured instruments like this. Best of luck!

Ron

[Salty]

Hi Tomo,

Its a really beautiful melody to work with and there are some really nice ideas here.
FWIW this is what I was thinking when I listened:

1) Because there are so many repetitions of the melody- I think you might want to vary the style of the accompaniment more- Im hearing some (a)countrapuntal lines that could fit in- and also Im hearing that you can vary the (b)rhythmic accompaniment. Also- for me personally I would've used a few different (c)harmonic variations- probably slowly increased or decreased the density of the line.

2) As was told to me by folks on here (and something I struggle to work on)- use the expression CC11 to control the attacks of the bow from the cello and horn too- otherwise they come in too hard sometimes, and also I think you can slur (overlap em) a bit more.

3) Piano should come in softer- you lose the melody under it for a while before the melody gets doubled again.

4) I would let the length be dictated by how much interesting variation you can come up with.

PS- dont feel that you have to listen to everything I just said- Just my opinion- and I also struggle with some of the stuff I mentioned.

Salty

[davewalton]

Just speaking of the overall sound, things have a very "midi" sound. There's just only so much that any composer can do with sounds that "out of the box" aren't at the same quality level as the sounds used by other composers. There are *some* things that you could do to help things along given your current sound set. Basic things like varying the expression on the instruments so that there's variation in the volume of the notes and in the phrasing. Making it so that, for example, the ending sustain notes trail off rather than holding at the same volume. Still, even if you did that, you're working with a sound set that isn't at the same level as LA Scoring String, EW Gold/Platinum/Hollywood Strings, etc. Those packages just start at a higher level of quality without any tweaking. The piano sound that you're using... don't use that any more. That particular sound will definitely kill whatever track you'd use it on. There's TONS of really good piano samples and packages (most at just a few hundred dollars) that it's impossible to get away with anything other than a real, true piano sound.

One thing too from a "recording philosophy" standpoint. Using ANYTHING solo all by itself that's not played by a live player is really difficult. The opening with the cello(s), since it's the only thing we're hearing, it has the really be the real thing. It's too obvious otherwise and/or would require a LOT of detailed tweaking to get everything just right. You start with three different instruments blended together then it's much easier to pull off a realistic sound.

Just as a bit of a comparison, I did the same opening using Hollywood Strings cellos, no tweaking (other than added reverb). I just played the phrase and let the software help with the phrasing. If I were to do this as a real piece it would still need a lot of work to give it the realism that it needs. Still, you can hopefully hear the difference between yours and this one. There's subtle phrasing that the software adds as each note is played. I also added a bit of piano too as a contrast. Just so you can A/B between whatever you're using for your sounds and what I'm using for my sounds. If someone did this with LASS it would be the same thing (maybe even better) where the overall sound would be more realistic and the software would be adding phrasing and realistic up/down bow strokes as part of the overall sound.

http://www.DaveWaltonMusic.com/PrivateA ... mbolac.mp3

As far as orchestral stuff goes, I think that the most bang for the buck (and still having great quality) is the East West Orchestral Gold. It has all the orchestral instruments (strings, brass, woodwinds, percussion), still sounds very good (even though it's several years old) and includes a halfway decent piano. LASS and other dedicated packages have better sounds but as a starter for the money (a few hundred dollars on a good sale) I think there's no real downside to the Orchestral Gold. Of course if you've got a few thousand and you're wanting to really make a leap forward then all of the top packages, LASS, Cinebrass, Hollywood Strings/Brass/Woodwinds, etc are all in play.

Anyway, hope that helps!

[Salty]

Dave,

Come to my house and program for me dammit!

[tomosombolac]

Hi


I was afraid of such answers My grandgrandfather clearly told me: "Don't ask questions if you're not ready to hear the answers!".


Dave - what a great improvement with such a simple piano intervention.
Salty - "CC11" was a complete mistery to me until today

On the technical note - in this particular piece all libraries are from Native Instruments Komplete (Kontakt). Native libraries from Native Instruments. I sure will take a closer look at libraries mentioned here and that's the easier part of job. Learning how to get the best from these tools will sure take some time

Thank you folks for your time and many helpful informations!

Tomo

[mazz]

Tomo,

I think your piece has a lot of nice things going on in it. All the comments here are well targeted towards what you need to work on. And yes, some new libraries will help you "up your game". And also your piece inspired a new blog post that I just completed. http://johnmazzei.com/2012/11/04/we-own ... ee-thirds/

I just want to say that you will still need to work on your MIDI programming skills even if you do get more professional sounding libraries. In fact, these libraries will make you work harder because they are designed to be musical instruments and not just on/off switches for samples.

Keep at it and don't let the feedback get you down, it's simply feedback and not meant personally at all. I don't think you took it that way, but sometimes it's nice to be reminded!

Cheers!

Mazz

[Cruciform]

On the technical note - in this particular piece all libraries are from Native Instruments Komplete (Kontakt). Native libraries from Native Instruments.

Hi Tomo,

The strings in Kontakt are pretty hard to get sounding nice on their own. I'll second Dave and say if you want to take the next step, wait until EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Gold is on sale for 50% off and pick it up. You'll also need to get an iLok to go with it. (Welcome to the neverending treadmill of improving sound quality).

Just as inspiration, here's what's possible with SO Gold. http://www.scottbuckley.com.au/wp-conte ... nquers.mp3 (not mine)

Do the same exercise with this as with Dave's rendition of your piece. Listen to a snippet of it, listen to a snippet of yours. See how the way they've worked the instruments using variations in note velocity, expression and articulations adds space and movement to the music, the breathing, the soul of the music is in how it's performed. The most mundane notes and chords can sound amazing when produced well.

Don't be discouraged. Be inspired. Listen to great orchestral mockups and work towards that standard. Commit to learning or improving at least one skill with every new piece you write. It will take time but the fact that you're prepared to share your work here on the Taxi forum is evidence you can go as far as you want to.

And take onboard the advice people here will give you. They genuinely want to see you improve and succeed. And listen to Mazz and Dave.

[tomosombolac]

Hi


Mazz, Rob - thank you for your suggestions, too.
No, I did not take it personally

I got much more than I was looking for by putting this piece here - I hoped for direct and honest critique. In addition, I got a tons of brilliant suggestions how to improve. Thank you.

"It’s not the gear, it’s the ear!" (Mazz)

Tomo

[Silje]

Hi,

I think your melodies are beautiful, but a fake solo-string is difficult to pull off without a good library

A few little things you can do with any string sound, no matter the quality is a) to get a map of the kind of orchestra you are imagining that you are writing for (current full-scale orchestra, string quartet etc...) and map your samples in the same way. First violins a bit to the left, etc. Just make sure that your library has not done this for you already, then your panning will be all weird.

b) go through each part, each tone - especially sustained ones, and work on the velocity and volume so that it does not play flat - but increases and decreases like it would if you had played it with a bow.

Sound on Sound has a lot of articles on how to edit midi-strings to make them sound natural, you can find them on their webpage.

One of them is this one
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar08/a ... ahurry.htm

Also, I have to agree with the others that mentioned EW Gold, it really is good value for money

Good luck!

-Silje