A Screeners Perspective?

[foglyte]

“70-80% of songs submitted are in the wrong genre”Since joining TAXI, I sincerely admit to being clueless about what’s what genre wise going by my returns, but this seems like a real problem for most people, so I am not alone.All of my returns state off target being the main reason, does this mean it’s the wrong genre? I think these are two separate issues. To me, off target doesn’t mean wrong genre, it means it’s off target due to reasons the screener thinks makes it so, with the genre obviously being one of the reasons.After listening/researching the ala’s mentioned, or the artists in the genre the listing states, I am still off target.For a orchestral listing, submitting a rock song is obviously in the wrong genre, but for most listings, it is highly subjective to know what genre is what as they tend to bleed into each other.I would like to know by what criteria the screeners are using to exemplify the genre, since 70-80% of us haven’t a clue.This won’t stop me from still trying though and I am trying to be more selective, but cracking the genre code must take more time than I have put in so far with my membership.Fog

[jay10music]

May 8, 2009, 12:35pm, foglyte wrote:“70-80% of songs submitted are in the wrong genre”Since joining TAXI, I sincerely admit to being clueless about what’s what genre wise going by my returns, but this seems like a real problem for most people, so I am not alone.All of my returns state off target being the main reason, does this mean it’s the wrong genre? I think these are two separate issues. To me, off target doesn’t mean wrong genre, it means it’s off target due to reasons the screener thinks makes it so, with the genre obviously being one of the reasons.After listening/researching the ala’s mentioned, or the artists in the genre the listing states, I am still off target.For a orchestral listing, submitting a rock song is obviously in the wrong genre, but for most listings, it is highly subjective to know what genre is what as they tend to bleed into each other.I would like to know by what criteria the screeners are using to exemplify the genre, since 70-80% of us haven’t a clue.This won’t stop me from still trying though and I am trying to be more selective, but cracking the genre code must take more time than I have put in so far with my membership.FogHi Fog,Yes, Off Target means the style or genre isn't being nailed. I think it's under the style category on the critique form, but I don't have one here at home to check.In a nutshell, it boils down to this. Radio drives the industry (still). Radio has formats because formats attract a certain demographic -- Country, Urban, Rock, etc. Marketing cowboy boots to Country listeners makes sense. Labels like artists that fit primarily into one genre because it's easier for them to get airplay, develop a following and sell records. Artists looking for outside tunes prefer to hear and cut songs that fit in their genre, and even more specifically, fits their personal range within that style. A Christian artist like Amy Grant won't be cutting a song about getting drunk and picking up guys at a truck stop any time soon -- using an over the top example to make my point.Pro writers ALL know exactly who and WHAT is on the charts right now. They know where the genres cross over as well. They stay current.We hear things like this right here on this forum: "I hate what's on the radio, I don't listen any more." "I don't care what the industry wants, I write what I write and if they don't like, big deal."Problem is those people have signed up to GET their music used in one form or another by using TAXI. So, they're not doing what the top competition -- the most successful people are doing, which is to KNOW the market -- and they often blame the industry, TAXI and the screeners for their lack of success.I often hear people fall back on the "I just do what I do" thing, and I GET that. They don't want to be pigeon holed. They fall on the more artistic side of the fence and that's fine.But if they choose that path, they can't expect to find as much success as somebody who gives the industry what it's asking for, which believe it or not, is controlled by public opinion. Here's how...Each format of radio, and virtually all stations do extensive testing to see which songs find and hold the biggest audience. The bigger the audience, the more money they make from selling ad time. Advertisers pay a cost per thousand rate. The more thousands of listeners, the more the station makes.People love to believe that payola dictates what they hear on radio. Not TOTALLY true. While "gifts" may get some spins for a song on the radio, it's testing well that keeps it on the air. I hear plenty of crap on the radio that I can't stand, but my 12 year old LOVES it. Let's face it, our parents hated Elvis and the Beatles ;-)So, genres are important! SOMEBODY is telling radio to keep those songs on the air. It's NOT some fat, cigar-smoking executive in an office tower that we'd more conveniently like to think controls it. It's US... well, at least our kids.If you come to the Road Rally, you will quickly see that many of the songs played at the pitch panels aren't even close to the genre they're pitched for. The panelists are often stunned, but more importantly, so are the members in the audience. I think it's a watershed moment for many of them. It's life changing... at least career changing.Members often ask us why WE can't tell them what genre their songs are in. We try, but some percentage of them almost can't be defined because they are so out of date -- not contemporary enough to be classified by any modern standard.One screener (being generous of spirit and trying to help) may call a song that sounds remarkably like, "Me and You and a Dog Named Boo," (circa 1974) Country, because that's the closest thing he or she can think of.The member sends that song in for a Country listing a month later, and the next screener hears it and being flummoxed by the lack of obvious genre, may tell the member that it doesn't fit that genre. They're BOTH right and the member gets pissed off because the critiques don't agree.How do we fix this problem? I'm not sure WE can. The members who want to compete on a Pro level need to DO what Pros DO! They need to suck it up, listen to the radio, follow the charts, and click the links we give them in the listings to hear what the referenced artists sound like. They need to write songs that use contemporary topics, melodies and lyrics (yes, Mr. Sinatra, styles do change). They need to get out of their comfort zones and WORK at it. Artists love to think that successful people are born that way and that success is handed out for being brilliant. Natural talent may be PART of the equation, but spending 10,000 hours to become great at something is more the rule than the exception. Read Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers to see what I mean.It may be comforting to know that even huge hit makers like Lamont Dozier or Diane Warren would tell you that they need to write 100 songs to get ONE cut. That said, they DO know what genre a song IS when finished, and they probably have a really good idea of which contemporary artist(s) might cut it.The bottom line; if you want to design a car that sells, you'd best start off creating one that has four wheels, not three or five. Game changing artists like the Beatles, Elvis, etc. don't come along very often. While you MAY be one of them, the odds are better for MOST people if they follow convention and then put some whipped cream and nuts on the sundae to make it taste a little better than what's out there. Incremental changes are easier to sell.Have a great weekend,Michael

[cameron]

Very informative Michael, and kudos to you for responding. I personally don't get too many "wrong genre" returns, but when I do I usually feel that the screener didn't read the listing thoroughly. Here's a recent example:"Need Hot AC songs a la Josh Groban for singer whose range is from Classical to Pop. Thoughtful and reflective lyrics like Jon Ondrasik of Five for Fighting, or Randy Newman's "Feels Like Home", REM's "Everybody Hurts" and Stevie Wonder's "They Won't Go When I Go". No corny lyrics! Beautiful underlying melodies."I submitted: http://www.taximusic.com/song.php?song_ ... tream=true The response I got: "I really like this song, Cameron - lyrically and conceptually but it misses the style of the listing altogether. This is a singer songwriter-styled song in a AAA style, Cameron. More roots oriented bordering on country - a long way from Josh Groban. Also, the structure doesn't work for commercial purposes and they are looking for hits here."I don't claim that this is the best song I ever wrote, and I would agree that my song is a stretch for Josh Groban, but the listing also referenced Randy Newman's "Feels Like Home". I don't think I was that far off there, and that was the ONLY reason I submitted for this listing.I don't mean to pick on the screener, who actually gave a thoughtful and mostly accurate description of the song's strengths and weaknesses, but sometimes I feel the screeners don't pay attention to what the listing actually says. Or is it me misinterpreting the listing?Nevertheless, I gotta say that I'm sure it's not easy, and for the most part the screeners get my utmost respect for what must seem like a thankless job. Just wanted to add my $.02 (since you're doing nothing Michael, lol).Cam

[hummingbird]

Great post Michael. Guilty as charged too. I'm ashamed to say it, but I sent in all manner of songs in my first year of membership that were... pretty bad in all ways. I never even bothered to listen to the 'a la's' in the listing. If it said country, I sent in the 6 min long folk tune with abstract lyrics. Figuring out what the different genres mean and how they are written/produced differently is a huge challenge.I agree, going to the Road Rally was, for me, an eye opening experience. I heard stunningly well produced songs that went nowhere. I heard songs played that weren't even close to the genre the writer had put them in. And, over 3 days, I heard a handful of great tracks. My first Rally helped me assess where I was in my songwriting journey... and how far I had to go if I really aspired to be successful.On Just Plain Folks they have a mentor review forum... each week people post a song/lyric that they'd like to get the review for... and the mentor picks one of those songs. Then everyone else reviews that song; then the mentor reviews that song; and finally the writer comments on the reviews. It's an interesting process. Harriet Schlock is one of the mentors (along with Pat Luboff). Harriet posted after we'd reviewed a song and she said something along the lines of... it's a difficult thing to be asked to review a song. We have to remove the 'how I would write this' and try to be objective. In addition, she said... that as soon as we begin to review something... we start to look for what is wrong... and that may colour our perception of the track. I thought that was a good point, and when I review things now I really try to see what works about that song/lyric.I haven't walked in the shoes of a screener, but I think I can appreciate the idea that good is indeed good, but perhaps not good enough to be great.It is more difficult, I think, to understand returns when the screener says it's on target and suggests minor changes to production when it's a song pitch. Or when it's on target and broadcast quality but the screener suggests minor changes to the lyrics when it's a film/tv pitch. I think those are the situations that confuse people. Essentially, if I read you right... the individual screener needs to feel it fits the needs of the listing in every way in order to get forwarded.

[crystallions]

Thank you for a very informative and interesting thread. I am learning a lot by reading this.Thanks,Lydia

[bigbluebarry]

May 9, 2009, 10:20am, cameron wrote:Very informative Michael, and kudos to you for responding. I personally don't get too many "wrong genre" returns, but when I do I usually feel that the screener didn't read the listing thoroughly. Here's a recent example:"Need Hot AC songs a la Josh Groban for singer whose range is from Classical to Pop. Thoughtful and reflective lyrics like Jon Ondrasik of Five for Fighting, or Randy Newman's "Feels Like Home", REM's "Everybody Hurts" and Stevie Wonder's "They Won't Go When I Go". No corny lyrics! Beautiful underlying melodies."I submitted: http://www.taximusic.com/song.php?song_ ... tream=true The response I got: "I really like this song, Cameron - lyrically and conceptually but it misses the style of the listing altogether. This is a singer songwriter-styled song in a AAA style, Cameron. More roots oriented bordering on country - a long way from Josh Groban. Also, the structure doesn't work for commercial purposes and they are looking for hits here."I don't claim that this is the best song I ever wrote, and I would agree that my song is a stretch for Josh Groban, but the listing also referenced Randy Newman's "Feels Like Home". I don't think I was that far off there, and that was the ONLY reason I submitted for this listing.I don't mean to pick on the screener, who actually gave a thoughtful and mostly accurate description of the song's strengths and weaknesses, but sometimes I feel the screeners don't pay attention to what the listing actually says. Or is it me misinterpreting the listing?Nevertheless, I gotta say that I'm sure it's not easy, and for the most part the screeners get my utmost respect for what must seem like a thankless job. Just wanted to add my $.02 (since you're doing nothing Michael, lol).CamCam, I think you misinterpreted the listing if you thought they were looking for SONGS like Randy Newman. Based on the listing excerpt you provided, it appears to me that wanted LYRICS that sounded like Randy Newman, but the song needed to sound like Josh Groban.HTH,- Big Blue

[jay10music]

Vikki,It's not that it ALWAYS has to be perfect in every category.The screeners have two missions: One to decide if the song is a forward or not and Two, to educate. We'll forward a song every now and then if it's amazing but lacks something else. We've certainly forwarded guitar/vocal demos because a song is amazing. Most songs are not AMAZING, but a decent percentage are pretty darn good. The industry can hear pretty darn good all day long, bu they don't want to, they want AMAZING.Like your Rally experience, we hear songs where the production is AMAZING, but te song itself is only pretty darn good. I know most people reading this would say, "Then why don't you let the industry person hear it and decide for themselves?"Because we know better, and I can ABSOLUTELY tell you that every one of you reading this would do the job EXACTLY as we do given the same circumstances.On Target means on TARGET for the STYLE, right? I don't have a critique sheet in front of me. So you COULD be on target for style, but that doesn't mean the song is necessarily GOOD enough. It only means it's on target stylistically.When the screener tells you the song is On Target, but ALSO suggests changes, he/she is only trying to fulfill the other part of the mission -- to EDUCATE. The two aren't necessarily intertwined. That's why we added the box in the lower right hand corner which tells you exactly WHY the song wasn't forwarded. We added that box because the members asked for it, but I can tell you from vast amounts of experience, NOBODY READS IT!All they see is, "the vocal could have been mixed louder" and think THAT was the reason the song wasn't forwarded, even though the REAL reason is stated in the box in the lower right hand corner. The vocal level was just a TIP, a suggestion, NOT the reason we didn't forward.Here's a little taste of what we deal with EVERY day. Anthony (one of our staffers) had these two incidents happen in a ten minute window on this past Thursday. One member called to tell him that "There is a Roman numeral at the end of my mouse." It was his cursor.The next member called and was screaming at Anthony, "I can't hear you!" The member had his phone upside down. These are TYPICAL examples of what we ALL deal with EVERY hour of EVERY day. And those people are some of the VERY same people who are reading the critiques, then complaining about them on this very public forum. Cam, my kids are begging me to get off the computer, and the last thing in the world I want to do is encourage our members to play, "Let's beat the screener with Michael's opinion" on this forum. BUT, and I mean this respectfully (I think you're really strong as writer, and will get a cut someday). I would bet you $100,000 that if you played that song for every single person in the entire music industry, not one would forward that to Josh Groban. It's just not HIM. Does it have one Randy Newman chord change? Yes. But it also sounds like a Willie Nelson voice singing it which would hurt the pitch cuz it frames it as country (things like that play a part), it's somewhat melancholy sounding, and it just plain doesn't sound like Josh Groban. I agree with the screener. Nice song, but there's nothing about it on any level that would work for Josh Groban.Can people hear past a Willie-like vocal? Yes! But why make them? Most pros wouldn't do that. But DON'T go thinking THAT was the reason I wouldn't pitch that to Josh Groban. I did that to make my point. Most members would lock in on that TIP, and not hear the part about, " there's nothing about it on any level that would work for Josh Groban."I'll raise my bet. I'll get us a meeting with Josh, play him the song, and if he cuts it, I'll give you my house. I'm that sure. And I mean that lovingly... really. Said with compassion.My kids are both now crying, gotta go. I can't be available to debate these things seven days a week. I REALLY want to help, but there are 11,000 members and only one me Michael

[cameron]

Hey, I can't take care of the house I've got now! I really DO agree with you, but why was Randy Newman referenced then? I can't hear Josh Groban singing the Randy Newman song either. BTW, I almost never submit my work tapes, which this was, particularly because of my vocals. Would you believe that I got two nines on this critique, one of which was for the vocals? Now THERE'S something you need to look into! Your time is very much appreciated, Michael. I gotta go write too!Cam

[cameron]

May 9, 2009, 11:31am, bigbluebarry wrote:Cam, I think you misinterpreted the listing if you thought they were looking for SONGS like Randy Newman. Based on the listing excerpt you provided, it appears to me that wanted LYRICS that sounded like Randy Newman, but the song needed to sound like Josh Groban.HTH,- Big BlueThanks Barry, I think that must be what they meant.Cam

[mojobone]

May 9, 2009, 11:31am, bigbluebarry wrote:May 9, 2009, 10:20am, cameron wrote:Very informative Michael, and kudos to you for responding. I personally don't get too many "wrong genre" returns, but when I do I usually feel that the screener didn't read the listing thoroughly. Here's a recent example:"Need Hot AC songs a la Josh Groban for singer whose range is from Classical to Pop. Thoughtful and reflective lyrics like Jon Ondrasik of Five for Fighting, or Randy Newman's "Feels Like Home", REM's "Everybody Hurts" and Stevie Wonder's "They Won't Go When I Go". No corny lyrics! Beautiful underlying melodies."I submitted: http://www.taximusic.com/song.php?song_ ... tream=true The response I got: "I really like this song, Cameron - lyrically and conceptually but it misses the style of the listing altogether. This is a singer songwriter-styled song in a AAA style, Cameron. More roots oriented bordering on country - a long way from Josh Groban. Also, the structure doesn't work for commercial purposes and they are looking for hits here."I don't claim that this is the best song I ever wrote, and I would agree that my song is a stretch for Josh Groban, but the listing also referenced Randy Newman's "Feels Like Home". I don't think I was that far off there, and that was the ONLY reason I submitted for this listing.I don't mean to pick on the screener, who actually gave a thoughtful and mostly accurate description of the song's strengths and weaknesses, but sometimes I feel the screeners don't pay attention to what the listing actually says. Or is it me misinterpreting the listing?Nevertheless, I gotta say that I'm sure it's not easy, and for the most part the screeners get my utmost respect for what must seem like a thankless job. Just wanted to add my $.02 (since you're doing nothing Michael, lol).CamCam, I think you misinterpreted the listing if you thought they were looking for SONGS like Randy Newman. Based on the listing excerpt you provided, it appears to me that wanted LYRICS that sounded like Randy Newman, but the song needed to sound like Josh Groban.HTH,- Big BlueWow, Barry, great catch! I missed that, too! Right there in the first two sentences; songs a la Groban, lyrics like blah, blah and blah...AND a suggestion for Michael.....design matters. Move the "main reason for return" box from the lower right hand corner and put it at the top of the page, in the middle, because it's the first thing we need to know.