Would Dark Side Of The Moon make it today?

[ggalen]

Mark,I agree.And the listening public doesn't demand "great" songs. Any number of good songs will do. As you say, maybe the band makes a splash and catches on. Then their songs (which must be listenable and enjoyable) will spread.But I maintain it isn't primarily the songs that do it, it's a whole series of events that happen and catch on for some random reason. The songs are part of the package. They don't need to be "great", or even hugely superior. Just good solid songs. As songwriters, we keep looking for what was it about the song that made it a hit. Maybe it's a lot more than the song. Maybe we are looking in the wrong place for an explanation of why a song is a hit and another isn't.And that's why we are all so perplexed when we can't hear the variation in quality between songs that are popular and others than aren't.There really isn't any.

[ernstinen]

Hey guys,First off, I am by no means comparing anything I've done to "Dark Side Of The Moon," but in the 90's I recorded a solo concept album entitled "Listen." The theme is about the death and rebirth of the soul. I wrote it at a time I was completely fed up with the L.A. music scene, and moved my studio to a mountain cabin with no telephone, television, nothing but silence. It took me a month to even begin working on it, 'cause I was so burned out on the music biz. 'My' musical soul was dead. I didn't even think I wanted to do a rock record --- it just kinda happened.I was extremely influenced by the concept albums of the 70's by Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, and especially Yes. The Tull influence helped me start playing my woodwinds (oboe, recorder etc.) and acoustic guitar again. Floyd's Gilmore influenced my electric guitar playing. Yes influenced vocal harmonies and the spiritual concept. It was a complete solo work, and a blast to record! Not as psychedelic and a little more pop/rock than Floyd, but kinda trippy nevertheless.I often wonder what would have happened if I had marketed "Listen." I didn't, and I probably should have.If anyone would like to hear it, lemme know!Long live concept albums --- Ern

[flood]

Mark,Steely Dan is almost too perfect of an example.For all the breakthroughs they made-and there were many-they never quite made it to the status of legend in enough minds.I was a DJ at a radio station when they kicked off a reunion tour. This would have been about 1997 or so. May be off by a year or five In any case, the fans seemed to have forgotten who they were.The little city of Omaha Nebraska was set to be their first date on a massive world tour to bring the Steely gang back together. They were booked at the largest venue in the city, a laughably small 6,000 seat convention center. I say small because, though we would all love to sell out something that size, Steely's itinerary for the remainder of the tour consisted of mostly STADIUM shows. I'm talking Rock in Rio size venues, for a hundred thousand or more.Show day arrived in Omaha, and the station received a call from the promoter, Cellar Door, if I remember right. One of the band members was ill.Show cancelled. Rescheduled for Des Moines, IA the next week. (Brilliant move, right?).Being a small town, we called the convention center and discovered:After 5k in advertising money spent for the ONE show, Steely Dan had sold 120 tickets or so, for this miniscule arena (by expectations).An amazing band who came at the right moment, and tried to come BACK at the exact worse moment.None of this is to take away from their accomplishments, only to point out how fickle and unfathomable the music audience is.I sure hope, for all our sakes, that the next Dark Side or Sgt. Pepper, or whatever, isn't stuffed in a hard drive or pile of CD's somewhere, going unheard.Best wishes,flood

[onoffon]

Purely as example -ONOFFON released our latest CD, Bridge to Presage, in summer of 2005. The International Online Music Awards chose it "2006 Best Album". A few selected review quotes -"This is OnOffOn's third album and these guys never fail to produce a quality musical exploration. This one, as all their discs, combines a strong jazz texture with prog rock leanings for a unique and captivating sonic structure. This is possibly their strongest and most diverse yet." - Music Street Journal"Organic and blessed. The latest CD from cult jazz L.A. superior artists, OnOffOn, is a miracle in composition, ease, and creativity. "Bridge to Presage" combines alternative directions in consort with gentle and secure expression to create the most satisfying jazz CD we've received this year. It is a complete work with 9 tracks intended to hear from start to finish." - Earbuzz.com "One of the main reasons I fell in love with this group so many years ago (mid-to-late '90's) is because they always bring freshness to the musical arena with their compositions.  You often read (or hear) statements like that about musical groups, but this band continues to amaze.  All instrumental on this 'round, with an almost "classical" underpinning, they have successfully painted sonic images that illustrates their (musical) vision of a world that emphasizes what should be our focus (as quoted from the liners) - "Humanity, Peace and Remembrance". - Improvijazzation Nation"Dave Goode, Von Babasin and Don Lake are OnOffOn and are joined on this CD by Marcus Duke (piano), the sublimely fluid Glen Garrett (saxes/flute), Ron King(trumpet/flugelhorn) and Bob McChesney (trombone) and if this isn't - in every way - THE most commercial jazz grouping I've heard in a long time, then I don't know what I am talking about. Truthfully, I am BLOWN AWAY by the sheer style, verve, musical dexterity and innovation shown on this remarkable CD, and I am certain even non jazz fans will find much to love about it. Oh, and stars? God knows how many recognized awards these guys have scooped up so far (do a search on the bandname, you'll see what I mean) not to mention this very CD being chosen as Album of the Year from International Online Music Awards (IOMA) which will go nicely with their Artist Of The Year award in 2005. Personally, I really run out of superlatives for this work, and ask you to go have a listen and buy, buy, buy... MY Jazz Album of the Decade even! Awesome, breathtaking musical vision." - Steve GilmoreNow, after reading reviews that are simply overwhelming and such an honor to have inspired those to write such things about, let me say this...In almost four years of its release, we've sold 15 CDs and had 341 individual downloads of the nine tracks...I don't even care anymore - we poured our life, heart, souls, blood, sweat, tears, and everything we are as musicians and composers into this album and bottom line is it doesn't matter how good or bad it is...It simply doesn't matter...

[heinsite]

very good question my friend--i first heard it coming back to journalism school after summer break, was the editor of the arts and entertainment page at San Jose State U. (among other stuff) and i got albums sent to me like friggin junk mail. i listen to them all, but of course only reviewed a few...but that one stuck in me head, and (thank heavans...) i gave it an excellent 1/4 page review i was so blown away...well, the rest we all know.the "flip side" (sorry for the pun...) also got Elton John's album "Don't Shoot Me I'm Only the Piano Player", and panned it--i expected allot more after what he had done--HATED and still do crocodile rock--well i think of course that went on to be a very big seller, but if i recall, i think that was one of his least "famous" albums. you just never know.all the best,wh

[ernstinen]

Apr 22, 2009, 11:08pm, heinsite wrote:HATED and still do crocodile rock--Man, me too! Everytime I hear that on the radio I change the station.How could an artist that did such an amazing record as "Rocket Man" get away with such drivel? I can even enjoy McCartney's "Silly Love Songs" because the bass is mixed so loud it's almost a cool record! Ern

[billg]

Speaking of taking a long time to succeed; Van Morrison's Astral weeks is in the top 20 "all time greatest" list of almost every important music critic (#19 in Rolling Stone's list, Dark Side Of The Moon is #43). It took 33 years for Astral Weeks to go gold! As a side note it was recorded mostly live in two sessions (there were actully three sessions but nothing was used from one of them). A great, although very abstract, concept album. Now 41 years later Van Morrison is performing live concerts of the album (in order with some of the same musicians) and people are paying for the concert, buying the live album, and have renewed interests and sales in the original. So it's kind of a huge hit album without ever being a commercial hit (if that makes any sense at all).from Wiki-Astral Weeks is a folk-rock and R & B album by Northern Irish singer-songwriter Van Morrison, released in November 1968 on Warner Bros. Records (see 1968 in music). Astral Weeks received critical acclaim immediately upon its first release and subsequently has been placed on numerous widely-circulated lists of best albums of all time.[1] The 1995 MOJO list of 100 Best Albums, ranked it as #2, and it received the #19 ranking on Rolling Stone's The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time in 2003.[2] It became and remains a cult favourite, despite the fact that it failed to achieve significant mainstream sales success for decades. (After 33 years, it finally achieved gold in 2001).

[mojobone]

Could a "Dark Side..." happen again? Of course it could; however unlikely, it already happened once, so...yeah. In fact, odds are there are between a hundred and a thousand albums as good as or better than Dark Side Of The Moon that no one ever heard of, nor ever will.It's easy to forget that that album came from a group of washed-up misfits; an obscure British psychedelic rock band still plugging away long after rock's psychedelic period had passed. The rock press had pretty well written them off, and the mainstream music industry considered them irrelevant-which is key, because if that weren't the case, it's doubtful their record company would have allowed them to do anything so innovative. (one man's "unprecedented label support" is another's 'lack of interference'-expectations were understandably higher for "The Wall") The band was able to do it, in part because the label didn't care what they did (well naturally, some people at the label cared, but I bet those people weren't directly responsible to the shareholders) and partly because the band's fans knew something the label (and by extension, the public at large) didn't. Those fans continued to show up in droves at the band's performances for the then-ridiculous price of five dollars a head, so the band could afford things like the finest recording facility available, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of the best available instruments and technology, and some very talented, yet also obscure young engineers. (tellingly, they could also afford as many truckloads of gear for the light show as they had for the sound)The thing I think most fans and many musicians fail to grasp is that it takes an enormous team of people to make a record a hit; a terrible lot of things have to go right and do so at the same time, for that to happen, and typically, the market has to be ready-but Dark Side was the most un-typical success ever; it's growth was slower and longer-lasting than anything before or since. It could even be said to have changed the market.If it did, it would be difficult to tell, given that it was in the charts for over twelve years, and a lot changes in that amount of time regardless of a given record. Certainly, no concept album comes close to touching it; all other full-length rock recordings in that sales league are compilations.A lot of things are different today. I'm not sure what we have that equates to what FM radio was when DSOTM came out-commercial stuff happened during morning and afternoon drive-time, and at night FM DJs played whatever they wanted-but AM stations had far more reach and market share, along with the more restricted playlists that are so ubiquitous at seemingly every kind of terrestrial radio nowadays. We also have a more fragmented media climate and (at least some) people are more connected to each other than to mainstream media-I think word of mouth travels farther now than ever before, and faster; you've heard of Susan Boyle, right? What hasn't changed is that talent (though maybe not world-class talent) is still thick on the ground, and now that nearly everyone has the tools, the next DSOTM, at least in terms of songs and sonics, could come out of literally anywhere or nowhere. I expect it'll happen about as soon as the people with the talent and the tools learn the techniques. (meaning it already did, several times over) As to the market, if I really knew anything about that, I'd have better things to do than type long-winded essays on a messageboard. )

[ggalen]

Good observations, mojobone.It's hard for musicians to accept that, any song that is 7 or higher on a scale of 1 to 10 could be a hit. It's circumstance, largely. And matching a current mood out there.People want to believe only 10s are hits. Or 10s are guaranteed to eventually make money. ...So if they can just work hard enough to make a few 10s, they are almost guaranteed success.But there is so much good music out there, and the huge majority listeners actually have pretty average standards for what they enjoy. So, many songs can fit the bill. Lots of competition out there to be heard above. Do it because you love doing it. Then you are always a success.

[matto]

Apr 22, 2009, 7:13pm, ggalen wrote:And that's why we are all so perplexed when we can't hear the variation in quality between songs that are popular and others than aren't.There really isn't any.Glenn, who says "we're all so perplexed"?For the most part I find it quite easy to figure out why the majority of hits become hits. Not ALL of them of course, but a significant enough majority to see a clear pattern emerge.Of course you have to have a willingness to really study all popular music in depth...rather than dismiss anything you don't like as "low quality".If I wrote 5 10 level songs (objective 10s, not 10s in my mind only ) I can pretty much guarantee you I would get noticed. I might not get them cut immediately, but enough doors would open to take me a giant step closer to that goal.The thing is, it's damn hard to write a 10. It takes years of honing your craft, a sizeable chunk of talent, and major level commitment.It's a heck of a lot easier to say...oh it's just a matter of luck, an average song has just as high a chance of succeeding as a great song.That's a very convenient excuse and a wonderfully elegant way to explain one's lack of success to others.That makes it no less of an excuse though.The only pathway to success is to take full responsibility for both one's successes and one's failures. Most people are quick to take credit for their successes, but blame failures on the public, the times, the business...you name it.In that light, and to get back on topic, I think something like Dark Side Of The Moon could absolutely succeed in a major way today; in light of the changed times, business and paradigms the path to success would probably have to be different but I don't think that's surprising.matto