Is it me or # 386?

[Russell Landwehr]

Hi Larry.

Could it be that #386's critique on the "room sound" may be because the room sounds too small and is causing some mix resonances? Where a close-mic'd drum sound with a club or restaurant sized ambiance would work better?

Russell

P.S. I've had returns and forwards from #386. Never any comments about mix, but I don't think they've screened any of my "live-band" sounding stuff.
OH! There was one forward from #386 that was all percussion. It is a mix of VST and live drums... mostly live. It is this one https://soundcloud.com/russell-landwehr ... ry-kennard

[larrymagee]

thanks russell. loved your drum piece!

[larrymagee]

Andy suggested that I post the song and custom critique by #386

Here is the song http://picosong.com/QWBY/ It's one I had recently submitted for the Cuban listing.

the guitars are panned to +20 (my scale is -64 to + 64) so about 1:00 on a clock face.
I made the stereo piano mono and panned it to -20, about 11:00

I did not EQ or compress any of the tracks. My mastering software (AAMS) performed multiband, multichannel EQ and compression using a preset called EasyListening.

Here are his comments about the mix

"Hi Larry, Thank you for requesting me and taking my suggestions to heart. I have a lot of experience in writing production music so I am sharing with you what I have learned along the way.
This mix is pretty good. The main thing that I would change is the piano. I think that you are trying to pan like you might be listening to a live band. Maybe not, I'm guessing. If the track is sparse I would pan the piano center or maybe at 1 and 11. If I am going to pan the piano left or right I might pan it at 12 and 3 or 12 and 9. It's taking up a lot of sonic space and fills out a track in a good way hopefully. You want to make your track sound as full and lush as possible. There are plenty of examples out there where the piano maybe panned. It's something that might work depending on the track. For this track it sounds to small.
The flute is playing the melody but it would be nice to have it enveloped and supported by the main harmonic instrument which is the piano. This mix is giving the bass more room than the piano. The piano is handling much more harmonic and sonic information than the bass and yet it's taking up less space in your mix. Try two things. First try panning it in the center and open it up to 1 and 11 and then try panning to one side at 12 and 9 and bring it up a bit. Listen to similar mixes with the piano panned more to the center and try to match it.
The bass, percussion and flute all sound very good.
All this being said when you change the panning and volume there may be eq adjustments needed so listen with that in mind.
This track is very good and I may have forwarded it as is depending on the listing. You, however, are trying to improve and asking these type of direct questions is the best way to do that. I hope that this has been helpful."


So the piano was the issue on this song. I don't understand what he means by panning the piano at 12 and 9. Maybe he means that if it's a stereo track to pan it to 10:30 ?? Maybe someone can enlighten me on that. My software just lets me pan to one position per track, so I don't know what he means by panning the piano to Center and then opening it up to 1 and 11, either. Perhaps when I redo this I'll go back to stereo piano at the Center of the mix and then pan the guitars at 11 and 1.

[andygabrys]

Try two things. First try panning it in the center and open it up to 1 and 11 and then try panning to one side at 12 and 9 and bring it up a bit. Listen to similar mixes with the piano panned more to the center and try to match it.

So the piano was the issue on this song. I don't understand what he means by panning the piano at 12 and 9. Maybe he means that if it's a stereo track to pan it to 10:30 ?? Maybe someone can enlighten me on that. My software just lets me pan to one position per track, so I don't know what he means by panning the piano to Center and then opening it up to 1 and 11, either. Perhaps when I redo this I'll go back to stereo piano at the Center of the mix and then pan the guitars at 11 and 1.

imagine a real piano recording. most basic is two mics, one over the LH and one over the RH. In many recordings its mixed by just panning one L and one R.

If you have Pro Tools, you can actually pan the Left channel of a stereo track / instrument and the R channel to certain places.

With Logic and other DAW's that have a VI you can only lean it to one side by panning. But you might have a plugin like the Waves S1 where you can change the "stereo width" as well as pan it to one side.

What i am getting from the screener:

try opening up the width of the piano so its more than mono, but less than full wide stereo. pan it to the center.

then try the same "width" but pan it left so effectively the L channel is about 9 o'clock and the R channel is approximately dead center.

HTH. Its a great tune. If it were me, I would look at simplifying it ever so slightly. Probably drop one of the guitar parts, or combine the best parts into one track. My 2 cents. I might also check some things like Cal Tjader's album "La Onda Va Bien" - as there is piano, vibes, flute, bass, percussion - similar deal except no guitars. Listen to how differently the Rhodes is treated to the acoustic piano especially on "Linda Chicana" where is it given a lot of width.

good luck. really cool tune.

[Russell Landwehr]

Ya, I agree with Andy that the panning of the left and right piano channels separately is what the screener is referring to. I use the free Flux Stereo Tool plugin to do these kinds of things.

[andygabrys]

Larry - not compressing or eq'ing instruments is a personal choice, but a little compression (like La-2 style) would help the bass sit a little more even in the mix and might make it easier to balance it against the piano et al.

I hear it right now as being a little loud and present (some notes, and others are too quiet), when A/B against Tjader I hear the bass on those recordings to be a bit more even, and a bit less out front, yet still carrying its weight.

[larrymagee]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Removing one guitar sounds like a good idea after fattening up the piano a bit. I tend towards simple and occasionally I'm not forwarded because I don't have enough instruments in the mix so I'll have to balance the idea with that screener concern. But it is probably the right way to go.

while reading your posts, I remembered that I can split a stereo track into two mono tracks, effectively giving me separate right hand and left hand tracks. I've experimented with this before and I wasn't happy with the sound when I tried bringing the two tracks slightly closer to mono, like the 9 and 12 thing, but that was a while back and I was trying it on a stereo drum track that I felt was too wide. it might work on this song for the piano.

Speaking of drums, After having #386 reject several songs for wide panning, I never pan any wider than 10:30 to 1:30 because he seems to screen a lot of my stuff. This leads to the issue of stereo drum tracks being wider than the whole band, which really sounds weird to me. I often convert drums to mono now.

Andy - I can see where light comp on the bass would be a good idea.

I appreciate the great suggestions, guys.