Tools/Software for measuring panning/wideness

[ElMiguel]

Hello,

I have recently found software that analyses and gives numerical info on Loudness levels such as LUFS.
Does anyone know of something similar that visually helps you to see how much/little an audio mix is panned?
I'm looking for a visual representation of how wide the audio spectrum is, so I can compare my mixes to professional mixes.

Thanks in advance!


- Michael

[Len911]

Here are free ones

http://www.fluxhome.com/products/freewa ... reotool-v3

https://www.meldaproduction.com/MStereoScope?kw=stereo

[andygabrys]

Hello,

I have recently found software that analyses and gives numerical info on Loudness levels such as LUFS.
Does anyone know of something similar that visually helps you to see how much/little an audio mix is panned?
I'm looking for a visual representation of how wide the audio spectrum is, so I can compare my mixes to professional mixes.

Thanks in advance!


- Michael

any goniometer. or phase correlation meter. I am sure your DAW has it. well maybe not if its Pro Tools but just about anything else. Len linked to some.

[ElMiguel]

Thanks to both of you, I'll certainly check this out. I'm using Cubase Elements for the time being

[ElMiguel]

Here are free ones

http://www.fluxhome.com/products/freewa ... reotool-v3

https://www.meldaproduction.com/MStereoScope?kw=stereo

Thank you for suggesting these free plugins.

I used the MStereoscope and noticed that the Width meter is too high in my mixes. From what
I could understand from the manual this will cause problems when the mix is played through mono
speakers.

This confuses me, since when I played back one of my mixes in a proffesional studio I was told that
the mix is not wide enough, it was a bit to molded together in the middle I was told. But from the MStereoscope
width meter I'm getting red indicators which tells me the mix is far too wide.

This is the mix btw: https://soundcloud.com/michael-keihl/entering-todash

From the MStereoscope manual: "Width Meter, above 100 %
In this case you should consider rotating the phase of the left or right channels or lowering the side signal,
otherwise the audio will be highly mono-incompatible and can cause fatigue even when played back in stereo."

My dumb question for the day is how do you rotate the phase of the left or right channel and how do you lower
the side signal? Do they just mean that you should pan less? I have another project where I have not panned AT ALL and it is still giving me the indication that there is too much width in the mix.

Any info to clear up my confusion about this would be highly appreciated.

- Michael

[Len911]

I used the MStereoscope and noticed that the Width meter is too high in my mixes. From what
I could understand from the manual this will cause problems when the mix is played through mono
speakers.

This confuses me, since when I played back one of my mixes in a proffesional studio I was told that
the mix is not wide enough, it was a bit to molded together in the middle I was told. But from the MStereoscope
width meter I'm getting red indicators which tells me the mix is far too wide.

This is the mix btw: https://soundcloud.com/michael-keihl/entering-todash

From the MStereoscope manual: "Width Meter, above 100 %
In this case you should consider rotating the phase of the left or right channels or lowering the side signal,
otherwise the audio will be highly mono-incompatible and can cause fatigue even when played back in stereo."

My dumb question for the day is how do you rotate the phase of the left or right channel and how do you lower
the side signal? Do they just mean that you should pan less? I have another project where I have not panned AT ALL and it is still giving me the indication that there is too much width in the mix.

Any info to clear up my confusion about this would be highly appreciated.

- Michael

Panning is not the same as stereo width. The "width indicator" is a phase meter, or as Brainworx calls it, correlation meter (theory of relativity,lol, just kidding). The theory is basically circles and sine waves (same thing), I'm not a mathematician, but panning is like 1 position on 1 circle, left or right channel, and because there are 2 circles, the width is the phase measurement between the 2 circles, now I think we're getting into astronomy, like planets in a solar system and what phase the moon is in,lol! When Jupiter lines with Mars,lol, things are in-phase.

Michael, I actually use the Brainworx bx_control V2, I attached a picture. Melda uses M/S also. The easiest way to explain it is to use the Brainworx for the example. Rotate phase is the same thing as inverting the phase 180 degrees btw, a mixer channel has a button somewhere.

M/S is what is called mid-side, or mono (mid), sides (left-right). The V2 has 5 white knobs on the right, labeled 1) balance, self explanatory left and right 2) Pan M or mid-mono 3) Pan S, pan sides l and r 4) Mono-maker with frequency @ the bottom, this increases the frequency threshold of the signal that will be routed to mid-mono. If you turn it all the way up for example, theoretically it should send everything to the middle and not any to the sides. 5) Stereo Width, self explanatory
There are also 2 meters in the bottom right hand corner 1) Stereo Balance, self explanatory 2)Correlation or phase, if it goes into the red, it means the left and right signals are having phase issues, or getting closer to 180 degrees causing cancellation, that's what Melda meant by switching the phase of one of the sides or inverting the phase, meaning the closer the sides are in phase they won't start cancelling, actually start reinforcing or making the combining signals louder. (combine 2 in-phase signals and it increases loudness, 2 inverted phase signals cancel each other. Signals theoretically must be exact for the full effect in either scenario to occur. [that's where you get the -3db pan law, if it is set in your daw, will compensate for the increased loudness of an in-phase panned signal, when you use the pan knob]

The main thing to remember in these M/S plugins is that mid(center) and mono are used interchangeably, and so is sides and left and right.

Bass and lead vocal are generally panned to the middle, mid. Because bass is considered non-directional, and main vocals for the center focus. However you can spread some of the bass or main vocal to the sides. For example, if you have an M/S EQ, more familiar with the Melda here,lol, you can move say the harmonics or higher frequency bands of the bass to the sides, which is sort of what the Brainworx does with the 'mono-maker'. So if some freqs of the bass are interfering with the kick or guitar, choose a crossover point and spread them to the sides. Same with the main vocal, if you have a vocal that is harsh in the mid frequencies, maybe "pushing" those frequencies out to the side.

So probably nowadays, mono-compatiblity isn't as important as phase cancellation is?? Mono is mainly a quick reference for how much signal you are losing and/or re-inforcing. A way to hear what the correlation meter is showing you.

[Len911]

https://www.meldaproduction.com/MStereoProcessor

https://www.meldaproduction.com/downloa ... cessor.pdf
page 9 for the description

Melda has this on sale currently for 40 euro or ~$46, half off, not sure how many more days, every week they have 4 plugins on sale.

The overview on page 9 of the manual gives a description of what the plugin does and doesn't do.
But this is a plugin that has a 4-band EQ that allows you to move parts of the frequency spectrum to the sides or middle.

If you want to truly delve into the M/S stereo editing, it has everything, even a 4-band EQ that you set the crossover points with one of 3 methods of EQ, analog, linear phase, and hybrid. It even has a tube saturator exciter,lol, it explains the delay parameters very well and their effect on phasing, eg. comb filtering...

it's got not only a phase scope, but the width meter as well.

Width meter shows the stereo width at the output stage. This meter requires at least 2 channels and therefore does not work in mono mode. Stereo width meter basically shows the difference between the mid and side channels. When the value is 0%, the output is monophonic. From 0% to 66% there is a greenrange, where most audio materials should remain. From 66% to 100% the audio is very stereophonic and the phase coherence may start causing problems. This range is colored blue. You may still want to use this range for wide materials, such as background pads. It is pretty common for mastered tracks to lie on the edge of green and blue zones. Above 100% the side signal exceeds the mid signal, therefore it is too monophonic or the signal is out of phase. This is marked using red color. In this case you should consider rotating the phase of the left or right channels or lowering the side signal, otherwise the audio will be highly mono-incompatible and can cause fatigue even when played back instereo. For most audio sources the width is fluctuating quickly, so the meter shows a 400ms average. It also shows the temporary maximum above it as a single coloured bar. If you right click on the meter, you can enable/disable loudness pre-filtering, which uses EBU standard filters to simulate human perception. This may be useful to get a more realistic idea about stereo width. However, since humans perceive the bass spectrum as
lower than the treble, this may hide phase problems in that bass spectrum.

[mojobone]

When the meters disagree with my ears, I go with ears.

[Len911]

When the meters disagree with my ears, I go with ears.

I would probably want to find out first why they disagree and go from there.

It reminds me when artist mechanics used to tune carburetors by ear and cars were lucky to last 100,000 miles, and though I'm sure not the only reason, but after fuel injection, and sealed carburetors came along the cars lasted much longer,lol!

I am on call for jury duty next week. I just hope if the evidence conflicts with my gut feelings that I won't hang an innocent person or free a dangerous person.

Luckily though, an out of sorts mix isn't going to destroy a daw, or determine the fate of anyone!

[ElMiguel]

Wow, thanks for the in-depth replies. Seems like this a big topic that needs to be studied.

For the time being I did a quick fix for my mix by using "StereoToolV3" from flux and dragging some buttons for the left and right channels.

Now the width meter in MStereoscope is showing something closer to what the professional mixes I was comparing to were showing. No more red/blue indicators. Seems like I'll have to study and learn more about what phasing and stereo analyzing is all about, but for today at least I managed a quick fix.

Thanks y'all!