My latest beef.... WAIT! There's more.

[diogenes]

This is meant to be more of a general comment, not aimed at anyone in particular and not meant to be inflammatory, but maybe thought provoking...Anyhow, what I want to say is that the older I get the more I realize that the people that have "made it" in the music business, have usually busted there arse's get there and deserve what they have. And yes, most of them are extremely talented (Including Beyonce, which for the record I'm no great fan of, but I can't deny that she has a great voice). I think in life, you find what your looking for. It's so easy to find reasons why someone sucks, especially when they're doing something you wish you were doing. But I just don't get it. Threads often pop up on here on today's music scene and that there's no real talent out now and blah blah blah blah. Ultimately I don't think things have changed as much as we'd like to think. One of my favorite Bands, Motley Crue got signed in the early 80's and how they did it wasn't different that how bands do it today. They played live, pressed they're own record (which sold 20,000 copies with no help from the internet) and drew huge crowds. Anyone that does that today can get a record deal. I know that's a little off subject, but anyhow. I wish we could all get off the hate train sometimes and stop the comparisons to former music stars. Because one day, there will be a thread about how the latest upstart doesn't do any justice to Beyonce. And none of it means anything anyway. Not my opinion, not yours...who gives a shit...why did I even type this...haha-Dax

[jonathanm]

Honestly, I'm not sure the public understands, cares about, or is willing to pay for the difference between those who pay their dues and the just-add-water instant recording artists. I really think that most purchases these days are made on iTunes or other similar outlets, and they're made by 12 to 15 year olds that are just looking for audio bling. Disney smelled this some time ago and is capitalizing big-time on it.I'm not saying there aren't true artists out there, but the buying public doesn't discriminate. Just give 'em the flavor of the day.

[davewalton]

Feb 8, 2009, 5:34pm, diogenes wrote:This is meant to be more of a general comment, not aimed at anyone in particular and not meant to be inflammatory, but maybe thought provoking...Anyhow, what I want to say is that the older I get the more I realize that the people that have "made it" in the music business, have usually busted there arse's get there and deserve what they have. And yes, most of them are extremely talented (Including Beyonce, which for the record I'm no great fan of, but I can't deny that she has a great voice). I think in life, you find what your looking for. It's so easy to find reasons why someone sucks, especially when they're doing something you wish you were doing. But I just don't get it. Threads often pop up on here on today's music scene and that there's no real talent out now and blah blah blah blah. Ultimately I don't think things have changed as much as we'd like to think. One of my favorite Bands, Motley Crue got signed in the early 80's and how they did it wasn't different that how bands do it today. They played live, pressed they're own record (which sold 20,000 copies with no help from the internet) and drew huge crowds. Anyone that does that today can get a record deal. I know that's a little off subject, but anyhow. I wish we could all get off the hate train sometimes and stop the comparisons to former music stars. Because one day, there will be a thread about how the latest upstart doesn't do any justice to Beyonce. And none of it means anything anyway. Not my opinion, not yours...who gives a shit...why did I even type this...haha-DaxHey Dax,What you say is true and reminds me of what I saw this morning on the show "CBS Sunday Morning". They did a profile of KAWS, a New York based artist that now has a huge following, does lots of work for name celebrities, clothing lines, etc. Looking at a single piece of his work, maybe a little squiggle on a pair of designer shoes, most struggling artists would say "Hell... I could do THAT!". What they miss is the entire volume of work and the struggle behind the success. He spent more than a decade basically as a graffitti artist (and there's probably more of those than "musicians") but he persisted, did some unique things like painting over bus stop ads, where people waiting for the bus had nothing to do but look at his art (brilliant!). And he is talented. More than anyone else? Probably not but he took the "long-term plan" approach and persisted where others just complained and found reasons outside of themselves why they weren't getting noticed. Now... who will lend me $100,000 so I can buy of piece of his limited edition art?

[billg]

Dax, I think you have veered off track a bit. Beyonce was portraying Etta in a film in which she also performed her signature song. There is no way that cannot conjure a comparison, in fact it would be crazy for anyone involved to think it wouldn't draw comparisons. Comparisons had to be not only considered but probably planned and welcomed.

[diogenes]

I may have veered off course, but so did others. What does Beyonce portraying Etta James have to do with American Idol or the general state of the music business? And to say "that the only thing that matters is money", that seems to imply that those who generate it probably aren't as talented as a lot of us undiscovered artists, and maybe they aren't in a few cases...but anyhow, we could debate this all day. But the criticisms seemed more broad to me than just a comparison with Etta James.

[hazineju]

this is an interesting discussion you guys, and i do think it's more than just etta vs. beyonce that's being discussed here. yes we know that what sells and what gets chosen to sell is largely focused on external beauty nowadays. yes there isn't much commerical music that has dynamics, raw soul, etc. and there definitely aren't many famous singers nowadays who tap into the essence of what mojo and squids are talking about. but i have to go out on a limb at the risk of windowman directing his killing rampage towards me to say that i think beyonce has a fantastic voice. now hold on, hold on, i whole-heartedly agree that the etta james version of at last has no comparison. period! but i think beyonce can genuinely sing unlike many others that have hit mega-star status today. she has a nice range, clean licks (if lacking soul!), and can actually sing well live. and i certainly can't speak for her, but i am sure that ggalen is right, bouncy is surely a fan of etta james, she wouldn't have taken the role if she didn't. i consider it a tribute to a legend to sing a cover of their song; not trying any remote attempt to one-up them....

[mojobone]

Beyonce is certainly a talented and hard-working young woman and a gifted singer, and comparisons to an artist with nearly fifty more years of stage experience are perhaps a bit unfair, like comparing Shania Twain to Patsy Cline or Mariah Carey to Aretha. (difference being, Shania and Beyonce seem to get that there's a difference)The larger discussion is about what our culture places value on, and how and why it seems to be misplaced.

[southpaw]

Quote:There's a very long and intricate thread on the gearslutz forum that deals with whether it's possible to hear something in a given piece of recorded music which can't be measured. Of course there is, and it's called soul. It's something you can't buy with money, and you can't grow it in a vat.No you can only sell it. I hear you can get a great price for it tho! I hear their making a new plugin that adds soul to uninspired performances, and for those who've already sold theirs.. Hmm... Maybe i can make great music, and also afford a lamborghini!But if they could make an algorthym that realistically induced authentic 'soul' into performance, would you buy it?(aside from the fact that corporations or wealthy investors would take over the music business)Quote:The larger discussion is about what our culture places value on, and how and why it seems to be misplaced. I couldnt have said it better, because this discussion applies to virtually any profession or line of work i can think of, and is a driving force that will impact the future generations and general 'american attitude' in my opinion.Quote: Threads often pop up on here on today's music scene and that there's no real talent out now and blah blah blah blah. Ultimately I don't think things have changed as much as we'd like to think.I usually try to defend this side of the argument when i get in discussions with other people who dont know what their talking about when it comes to music. (respectively)I think their are many degrees of truth to it, and becuase i hate complaining and hearing people whine. But theres just so many shades of grey with this, and with 'most things' for that matter.. But in my own thoughts, i go back and forth with this. With beyonce,I personally cant stand beyonces voice. I hate the tone of it, i hate what she say in her lyrics, i hate her vibrato, i cant stand that kind of production that most her songs have. I think on my worst, uninspired day, i could crap the beat for her next beat. And i hate that. Its all just annoying to me, and i almost always change the radio station. (for some reason, i less frequently change the music videos tho. ) The next song is always brittany spears or something like that, and i say, what happened to the etta james', donny hathaways, the stevie wonders, the lou rawls, hell even the billie holidays. Other times, and often a day ive had a satifying day of music making or recieved some small tolkein of appreciation for my music in some small way, i am able to think positively and accept the fact that, "well i dont like the music" but im happy that person is doing well." Im tired and dont feel like being tactful right now, so im not going to try to defend my somewhat sharp veering off topic. I get annoyed with this business sometimes. It bugs the crap out of me that there are so many questions in this business that i dont know the answers too. Especially, how come their is so little experimentation with popular music in the most capable time period to explore the possibilities? Who the hell can tell me, "well its just not what the people want to hear" if the the masses of people cant hear it and decide for themselves ..? Who decides what 'pop' music is....? I understand its a popularity contest, but why are people allowed to choose between this standard form and that standard form... why cant we see if people like different forms....? ..Alright, im getting a little carried away, im going to stop before i blow a vein in my head.Ive grown to understand that i can only change my my actions and attitude, and its much easier to complain than inspire. I still sometimes want kick a whole through the wall with the fact that the business of music is less about an 'invaluable artistic communication' as it is the things people can buy with the sales of that creation. I just found some relief knowing that ive got time for another couple hours of jamming tonight, so i gotta go get some refreshment! Please excuse my rigidness at the moment folks. Im kinda peeved today (some frustrating returns + stupid people) im sure you cant tell..Cheers, Jamie

[mazz]

Well I certainly wasn't out to disparage Beyonce's voice, ability or talent. I just don't YET hear the dues and life in her performance. And that's just a personal preference because I wasn't aware of (or even around to be aware of!) Etta James in her early years. Yes, Beyonce has a clue and has a respect for her ancestors. I don't believe one should suffer (too much) for their art, but the pain and suffering that comes through an Etta James when she sings is a thing of beauty, IMO. I think Beyonce, as she progresses, will naturally exude that more and more and hopefully she will be able to rise above the limitations of current style and become a classic.IMO.Mazz

[windowman]

Feb 6, 2009, 9:06pm, jwebbinspired wrote:Unfortunately it's not about respecting these legends artistically it's all about the money. But still I'm sure everyone has seen "Walk the Line"...I think Joaquin Phoenix did a fairly good job portraying Johnny. I'm gonna sound like I'm name dropping here, but here goes.... A friend of mine has recently done a lot of gigs with W. S. Holland, JC's drummer for all those years. Anyway, according to W.S., that movie was all B.S. A lot of that stuff never happened, or was greatly exaggerated for the sake of Hollywood. I'm sure that's no surprise. For one thing, they totally missed JC's wicked sense of humor & sense of fun. I guess W.S. thought it was funny, only because he was there when all of that stuff happened. (Which, according to him, never did.)On the other hand Andy, I agree. I liked Joaquin & genuinely dug the movie.Feb 6, 2009, 9:06pm, jwebbinspired wrote:It may have already been beaten to death, but I thought the movie "Once" was awesome. it was very raw (obviously it wasn't a tribute to anyone) but it was cast full of people almost unknown in America...I thought that film was remarkable...I've never seen it but thanks for the heads up. I'll check it out. Feb 6, 2009, 9:06pm, jwebbinspired wrote:Bouncy is only where she is today because of her looks and willingness to compromise her integrity. AndyI don't really think she knows what she's compromised in taking the Etta role. I'm too young at 43 to have been around when that music happened, or to even understand the implications that were there involving 'race' records and the whole state of the industry at that time. But, I did take the time many years ago to study it and try to grasp what was going on musically & socially. (Mostly, I just cranked it up & enjoyed the music.) I still don't think I quite get it, much like a lot of other white people in awkward white blues bands. I mean, when I think of Muddy, Howling Wolf, Little Walter etc., I picture them as old blues men. But, at the time, they were in their prime.And, Bouncy is 27, I think, and she probably did just enough homework to get her the role. I'm being presumptuous, of course.Feb 8, 2009, 11:13am, cameron wrote: The guy who played Chuck Berry didn't much remind me of the original though, that's for sure. I guess they figure all of us who remember him are probably too old to go movies anymore. I saw the movie last night thanks to a 'friend' who had a 'screener'. Mos Def played Chuck. What I said earlier about him not having the vocal chops or guitar chops is true, but I though he pulled off the acting quite nicely. In fact, he was one of my favorite people in the film.Feb 8, 2009, 11:13am, cameron wrote:Speaking of Aretha, I just saw the absolute worst imitation of James Brown, Aretha and Elton John on a cruise ship variety show (I know, I know... what would you expect?). The girl who played Aretha was anorexic thin and wasn't even black, and based on the performance I doubt the James Brown actor was either. Even doubled up on downers JB would have had more energy. At first we thought it might be halfway fun too see, but left in disgust about 5 minutes into the show. CamI've worked with a lot of tribute artists over the years as a good-for-nothing sideman. Yes, a lot are talentless, awful people but those are hard gigs whether you're good at it or not.Feb 8, 2009, 5:34pm, diogenes wrote:the older I get the more I realize that the people that have "made it" in the music business, have usually busted there arse's get there and deserve what they have. And yes, most of them are extremely talented (Including Beyonce, which for the record I'm no great fan of, but I can't deny that she has a great voice). Some people, yes, have worked hard. Any harder than you? I'm a fan of what you do, as I've mentioned in the past. I would listen to your music any day before I'd listen to anything that Bouncy has done. But, yeah, she has those dancing skills too. Oh.... so do a lot of strippers I know. Feb 8, 2009, 5:34pm, diogenes wrote:I think in life, you find what your looking for. It's so easy to find reasons why someone sucks, especially when they're doing something you wish you were doing. But I just don't get it. Threads often pop up on here on today's music scene and that there's no real talent out now and blah blah blah blah. Ultimately I don't think things have changed as much as we'd like to think. One of my favorite Bands, Motley Crue got signed in the early 80's and how they did it wasn't different that how bands do it today. They played live, pressed they're own record (which sold 20,000 copies with no help from the internet) and drew huge crowds. Anyone that does that today can get a record deal. I know that's a little off subject, but anyhow. I wish we could all get off the hate train sometimes and stop the comparisons to former music stars. Because one day, there will be a thread about how the latest upstart doesn't do any justice to Beyonce. And none of it means anything anyway. Not my opinion, not yours...who gives a shit...why did I even type this...haha-DaxI'm not on a hate train heading towards Bouncy & her fabulous yobs (Mmmmmm....boobies), I was only stating that the people portrayed in the movie weren't done justice, musically. I think younger people that see it aren't going to get the impact of an Etta James from a Bouncy. It's soulless & lifeless.Feb 8, 2009, 7:42pm, diogenes wrote:I may have veered off course, but so did others. What does Beyonce portraying Etta James have to do with American Idol or the general state of the music business? And to say "that the only thing that matters is money", that seems to imply that those who generate it probably aren't as talented as a lot of us undiscovered artists, and maybe they aren't in a few cases...but anyhow, we could debate this all day. But the criticisms seemed more broad to me than just a comparison with Etta James.We live in an evanescent world; not just musically. So, yeah, being broad may be a good thing. If us, as a musical community, don't see the problems with the way things are going, who will? You have to at least take a stand for the things that you understand & the things that bring some kind of meaning to your existence. Just because you're not famous or rich, doesn't mean that your opinion doesn't make a difference. DIOG- You're not on the sidelines; You're out there in the game. Respect yourself, respectfully.I see a lot of folks on here worried about their music being stolen, ripped off, before they've even gotten one song forwarded. I'd love to have a song stolen. It would be proof to me that I've done something that someone wants. We live in a different world now than 10, hell FIVE years ago.Feb 8, 2009, 7:43pm, hazineju wrote:but i have to go out on a limb at the risk of windowman directing his killing rampage towards me Bwa-ha-ha-ha.Feb 8, 2009, 7:43pm, hazineju wrote:to say that i think beyonce has a fantastic voice. now hold on, hold on, i whole-heartedly agree that the etta james version of at last has no comparison. period! but i think beyonce can genuinely sing unlike many others that have hit mega-star status today. she has a nice range, clean licks (if lacking soul!), and can actually sing well live. and i certainly can't speak for her, but i am sure that ggalen is right, bouncy is surely a fan of etta james, she wouldn't have taken the role if she didn't. i consider it a tribute to a legend to sing a cover of their song; not trying any remote attempt to one-up them.... I think Bill G. brought up something important earlier. There are tons of singers out there for $150 a night that could kick Bouncy's voice in a heartbeat. Man, I can get them up here for $75.She may be a fan of Etta's, but, don't forget, she got a lot of $$$$ for doing the role. She's the biggest star in the movie.Feb 8, 2009, 8:06pm, mojobone wrote:The larger discussion is about what our culture places value on, and how and why it seems to be misplaced. That pretty much sums up what I meant to say in the first place. Why didn't I think of that?Anyway, like I said, I saw the movie last night. Very Hollywood, that's for sure. A lot of tired old story lines & cliches. BUT, the basic story is out there now of a very important time in history, American history, world history & musical history. I don't know if the you Yanks understand the influence that the Chess records period had on the rest of the world. It's the reason why there is such an affinity for the blues on this planet, IMHO. SRV was a God in his own right, but would he have been accepted without these folks paving the way? I know, Texas blues is different, but still you can't deny the impact that this little Jewish man & these kick ass black folks had on the planet.I'll guarantee you this, though. None of 'em made the kind of dough in their careers that Bouncy made doing one flick that depicted them. And, once again, kudos to Mos Def for making me laugh & nailing the Chuck Berry character. Eamonn Walker as Howling Wolf was fabulous too. I don't know if it was him singing, but that was a great vocal performance.1 thumb up.Ebert