Chiarelli & His Panning Rule

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Re: Chiarelli & His Panning Rule

Post by jaywilliams » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:11 pm

it's an interesting topic and Chiarelli's record of accomplishment speaks for itself.

I've been using some variation of panning things at roughly 10 and 2 for the most part - wide enough that they sound off to one side or the other.

if its an electronic track I might have an element bounce around the stereo field during the course of the song, in which case the sounds might bounce a little bit wider.

in the Coursera/Berkelee School of Music course "the technology of music production" the instructor specifically dismissed the idea of panning hard left or right as it sounds un-natural.

so now I'm kind of lost but I may try to work some hard panning into my mixes and see if it works.

thanks for the articles and for starting this thread, things that make you go hmmmm (center panned of course!)

;)
see you at the top!

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Re: Chiarelli & His Panning Rule

Post by jdstamper » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:50 pm

I think you have to use some common sense, like ... an orchestra would sound unnatural with LCR panning.

I'd really like to know how music supervisors or music editors feel about it, does LCR panning make the music distracting with elements hard left and hard right, or is it helpful because it opens up the center more?
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Re: Chiarelli & His Panning Rule

Post by MBantle » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:20 pm

jdstamper wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:50 pm
I think you have to use some common sense, like ... an orchestra would sound unnatural with LCR panning.

I'd really like to know how music supervisors or music editors feel about it, does LCR panning make the music distracting with elements hard left and hard right, or is it helpful because it opens up the center more?
I agree. I also don't think anyone would pan a drumset LCR style (or would they?). Imagine a Hihat panned hard left or right (depending on the school of thought) would sound a bit weird, unless you pan an almost equal reverb or delay to the other side. I think at the end of the day LCR is probably a tool like many others and needs to be used if it makes sense in the given circumstances...

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Re: Chiarelli & His Panning Rule

Post by Tunesmith » Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:18 pm

MBantle wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:38 pm
Apparently, Pensado & Al Schmitt do not buy into LCR... 00:17 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvi5Ked_1aM
Hi Matt..thanks for the video!I buying Al's book...and Marcus for sharing the article!

My 80's sing was recorded with reverb from a Yamaha R100. I didn't add any more as I didn't want to affect the vintage reverb. Guess I was lightweight on the reverb in 1987!

I usually have panned 10, 2 o'clock The article and video are very interesting especially comments after in the article..

Linda

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Re: Chiarelli & His Panning Rule

Post by lesmac » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:05 pm

As Jim mentioned you can change the pan depth setting in your DAW.
The SOS article he referenced as well states that its really noticeable when moving an instrument across the soundstage to maintain a fixed level. It goes on to state that the setting can have a different effect when listening in stereo or mono. Minus 3 for stereo is recommended and minus 6 for mono.
Pro tools allows the pan depth setting to be changed in the Setup-Session window.

This little plugin by Boz Digital Labs can make it easy, I use it and like it. It seems to glue things together_ glue is good isn't it? :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGNY29iJqpo
You can play around with the pan depth attenuation within the plug too.

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Re: Chiarelli & His Panning Rule

Post by MBantle » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:20 am

lesmac wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:05 pm
As Jim mentioned you can change the pan depth setting in your DAW.
The SOS article he referenced as well states that its really noticeable when moving an instrument across the soundstage to maintain a fixed level. It goes on to state that the setting can have a different effect when listening in stereo or mono. Minus 3 for stereo is recommended and minus 6 for mono.
Pro tools allows the pan depth setting to be changed in the Setup-Session window.

This little plugin by Boz Digital Labs can make it easy, I use it and like it. It seems to glue things together_ glue is good isn't it? :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGNY29iJqpo
You can play around with the pan depth attenuation within the plug too.
This little thing is amazing :D Thanks!

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Re: Chiarelli & His Panning Rule

Post by andygabrys » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:27 am

MBantle wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:38 pm
Apparently, Pensado & Al Schmitt do not buy into LCR... 00:17 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvi5Ked_1aM
Yeah but listen to most of the music that Al Schmitt works on. A lot of it is jazz. He explains how he would mic somebody like Diana Krall - Piano Hard L+R. Vocal center. Guitar off to the left a little so the treble range of the guitar complements the treble range of the piano on the right.

Pensado will use LCR if its needed.

The most important thing here is to note that not many people DONT use hard L+R and bunch everything up in the center.

Most people pan something hard L+R to establish a wide sound stage and then depending on how the parts are arranged - they may continue stacking hard L+R or pan it more inside.

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Re: Chiarelli & His Panning Rule

Post by MBantle » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:36 am

andygabrys wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:27 am
MBantle wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:38 pm
Apparently, Pensado & Al Schmitt do not buy into LCR... 00:17 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvi5Ked_1aM
Yeah but listen to most of the music that Al Schmitt works on. A lot of it is jazz. He explains how he would mic somebody like Diana Krall - Piano Hard L+R. Vocal center. Guitar off to the left a little so the treble range of the guitar complements the treble range of the piano on the right.

Pensado will use LCR if its needed.

The most important thing here is to note that not many people DONT use hard L+R and bunch everything up in the center.

Most people pan something hard L+R to establish a wide sound stage and then depending on how the parts are arranged - they may continue stacking hard L+R or pan it more inside.
Yes, that is my understanding, too. It is used to the extent it makes sense and enhances the mix.

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Re: Chiarelli & His Panning Rule

Post by andygabrys » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:41 am

MBantle wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:20 pm
jdstamper wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:50 pm
I think you have to use some common sense, like ... an orchestra would sound unnatural with LCR panning.

I'd really like to know how music supervisors or music editors feel about it, does LCR panning make the music distracting with elements hard left and hard right, or is it helpful because it opens up the center more?
I agree. I also don't think anyone would pan a drumset LCR style (or would they?). Imagine a Hihat panned hard left or right (depending on the school of thought) would sound a bit weird, unless you pan an almost equal reverb or delay to the other side. I think at the end of the day LCR is probably a tool like many others and needs to be used if it makes sense in the given circumstances...
The two instances that you have noted (orchestral and drum set) are both MULTI MIC situations.

For example the drum set:

the overheads are usually separated by some distance. Usually those are panned hard L+R.

The hi-hat is usually off to one side of the center point between the OHs. The snare and the kick are usually right in the center or as close as possible (note that the axis of the overheads might be twisted to maintain phase coherency).

The snare and kick close mics are panned center. The hi-hat is panned off to one side a little - so that when you listen to the OH drum image without hi-hat, you might hear it at 2 o'clock. Then when you bring in the hi-hat close mic, you pan it so it shows up in the same place in the stereo spectrum. This helps maintain phase and prevent ghostly hi-hat showing up on the other side of the stereo spectrum from where the close mic is panned.

Same thing with an orchestra:

Orchestra is usually recorded with a Decca tree. Its basically one beefy mic in the center, and some distance away, a L mic and a R mic. Google it. The L+R mics are panned to present a nice stereo image. Likely not hard L+R but depends I suppose. If you think of it - the three main mics are basically LCR.

Its more complicated than that because there might be additional distant room mics that are brought up subtly to give more of the room sound and less direct instrument.

If there are featured soloists, they might have spot mics on them where they sit in the orchestral setting. They are going to pan that mic appropriate so muted or playing it shows up in the same place in the orchestral soundstage.

the Main thing to capture with orchestra is the sound of the instruments in the room - that's what we consider an orchestral sound. That's what the Decca tree does well.

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Re: Chiarelli & His Panning Rule

Post by MBantle » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:26 am

andygabrys wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:41 am
MBantle wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:20 pm
jdstamper wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:50 pm
I think you have to use some common sense, like ... an orchestra would sound unnatural with LCR panning.

I'd really like to know how music supervisors or music editors feel about it, does LCR panning make the music distracting with elements hard left and hard right, or is it helpful because it opens up the center more?
I agree. I also don't think anyone would pan a drumset LCR style (or would they?). Imagine a Hihat panned hard left or right (depending on the school of thought) would sound a bit weird, unless you pan an almost equal reverb or delay to the other side. I think at the end of the day LCR is probably a tool like many others and needs to be used if it makes sense in the given circumstances...
The two instances that you have noted (orchestral and drum set) are both MULTI MIC situations.

For example the drum set:

the overheads are usually separated by some distance. Usually those are panned hard L+R.

The hi-hat is usually off to one side of the center point between the OHs. The snare and the kick are usually right in the center or as close as possible (note that the axis of the overheads might be twisted to maintain phase coherency).

The snare and kick close mics are panned center. The hi-hat is panned off to one side a little - so that when you listen to the OH drum image without hi-hat, you might hear it at 2 o'clock. Then when you bring in the hi-hat close mic, you pan it so it shows up in the same place in the stereo spectrum. This helps maintain phase and prevent ghostly hi-hat showing up on the other side of the stereo spectrum from where the close mic is panned.

Same thing with an orchestra:

Orchestra is usually recorded with a Decca tree. Its basically one beefy mic in the center, and some distance away, a L mic and a R mic. Google it. The L+R mics are panned to present a nice stereo image. Likely not hard L+R but depends I suppose. If you think of it - the three main mics are basically LCR.

Its more complicated than that because there might be additional distant room mics that are brought up subtly to give more of the room sound and less direct instrument.

If there are featured soloists, they might have spot mics on them where they sit in the orchestral setting. They are going to pan that mic appropriate so muted or playing it shows up in the same place in the orchestral soundstage.

the Main thing to capture with orchestra is the sound of the instruments in the room - that's what we consider an orchestral sound. That's what the Decca tree does well.
Thanks Andy! That makes sense. Translating this to VIs, I understand when mixing/panning individual orchestra or drum tracks you would rather mimic the position in the spectrum they are typically recorded in as opposed to rigorously panning the individual tracks LCR.

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