Too long? Please help (Structure only)

[LoBellver]

Hi all!

I'm working on a song that has:

Intro (8 bars)
Verse A (16 bars)
Verse B (16 bars)
Chorus (8 bars)
Verse C (16 bars)
Chorus (8 bars)
Bridge (16 bars)
Solo (16 bars)
Chorus (8 bars)
Chorus (8 bars)
Fade out chorus (8 bars)

The song is roughly 4 minutes long and is a ballad.

I am worried it might sound too long or somehow heavy because of having 3 verses instead of 2, though I don't put a chorus in between these two first verses (like in "Eye In The Sky" by Alan Parsons, but in his song he has no bridge)

The bridge has lyrics, the only instrumental parts are the intro and the guitar solo (that has the same chords and orchestration the chorus has).

Your feedback will be greatly welcome.

[Casey H]

Hard to tell without hearing and knowing the tempo and genre, but probably too long. A double verse before the first chorus can work but if the verses are long, you may be getting to the chorus too far in. You almost always want to get to the chorus in under a minute, 45 seconds even better. A 3:00-3:30 song is fine.

The always is "Get to the chorus, don't bore us"... Listeners, especially music execs are very impatient.

The preferred hit format is VCVCBC(C).

Best,
Casey

[LoBellver]

It's a pop-rock balad. 124 bpm.

[Casey H]

Rounding off to 120 BPM, here is how long your sections are..

Intro (8 bars) 16 seconds
Verse A (16 bars) 32 seconds
Verse B (16 bars) 32 seconds
Chorus (8 bars) 16 seconds
Verse C (16 bars) 32 seconds
Chorus (8 bars) 16 seconds
Bridge (16 bars) 32 seconds
Solo (16 bars) 32 seconds
Chorus (8 bars) 16 seconds
Chorus (8 bars) 16 seconds
Fade out chorus (8 bars) 16 seconds

That means you wouldn't get to the chorus until 1:20! And a 32 second solo is way too long. No reason, BTW, your intro couldn't be half as much. The times above, combined with what I said in my previous post should answer your question.

Google for contemporary pop and pop/rock hits. Remember, you are not writing album tracks for 1969 or 1971.

HTH
Casey

[LoBellver]

Thanks for your knowledge. I have erased the second verse so the first chorus enters at 00:46 now.

You were completely right in that sense. The song has an "intimate" feeling and I think the intro needs to be 8 bars but I'm taking your coment into consideration and I'll see if a shorter intro works as well.

Thanks again.

[Casey H]

Also, I strongly recommend NOT doing a fade out. A button ("sting") ring out ending is almost always needed for Film/TV. Music editors like to be able to line up the ending with the end of a scene. Many music libraries won't even take songs that have fade outs.

Casey

[LoBellver]

What is a button ("sting") ring out ending? Got any example?

[Casey H]

What is a button ("sting") ring out ending? Got any example?

A "button" simply means a hard end, not a fade out. Usually there is a final chord hit that rings out and fades at the end. All the songs I do for Film/TV have hard endings. Stop by my Soundcloud page, www.soundcloud.com/caseyh ... I can't take credit for the productions and performances, just the songwriting. But you'll notice, no fade-outs.

Here is an example of a sting ending used on a TV show. Notice how the chord ring out goes with the scene transition.
https://youtu.be/dOomorOoOoc

Casey

[LoBellver]

I get it now, thanks again.

[mikemichnya]

Great general advice, Casey, although it's hard to tell without hearing the actual song. There are plenty of three-minute songs that feel too long by half, and a fair number of four-minute songs that are just right for what they do. But 124 BPM feels more like mid-tempo than ballad, IMO.

Without actually hearing the song, and what you have to say and how you say it, it's hard to comment on the length, but the tempo is quick enough to cut both the intro and the instrument solo in half (to 4 and 8 bars, respectively). Same thing with the bridge, depending again on what you have to say.

With regard to structure, the type you choose depends. The most COMMON song structures and the structure with the most hits are often different and tend to change over time. According to Ralph Murphy (who analyzes the hit songs every year), in 1999:

"Your best shot for getting a #1 (country) record (was) to write:

mid- to up-tempo
romantic/humorous or sad/heartfelt theme
4/4 time
contemporary pop/country style
story or conversation
1st person or 2nd person
3rd form: Verse-(Verse Opt.)-Chorus-Verse-Chorus-Bridge-Instrument-Chorus-Out
linear melody with a story to a soaring chorus
13 second intro"

source: https://www.ascap.com/music-career/arti ... w/murphy16

But in 2016, "if you want to write a #1 Pop Billboard Chart record......and remember these were the #1 hits of last year. This is the consumer speaking, not me!

of the 9 #1 songs on the Billboard Hot 100,
Five were 4th form: verse, verse, pre-chorus, chorus, verse, pre-chorus chorus, middle 8, chorus...out). That structure seems to fit the listeners expectation in Pop.
Three were third form: v, chorus, v, chorus, middle 8/breakdown/instrumental, chorus out...).
Let's take a look at Justin Beiber. He has a 14 second intro, and a very European approach as he starts with the chorus, but it's also 125 BPM so it's trying to be all things to all people by adding in radio as well as dance.
Adele also mixed forms....the very cool 5th form (a,a,b,a) is mixed in with the 4th form to really maximize the title "Hello". After the obligatory two verses starting with the title there is a small prechorus/bridge/lift before what should have been viewed as a bridge....it's in this case treated as a chorus.
There is also a "breakdown" or "middle eight" which uses the word "anymore" which is the last word of the bridge/ chorus just to further the illusion of 4th form.

Have an approximately 9 second intro (that's factoring in Taylor Swifts "zero start" and dividing by the total number of songs on the Chart).
Use the pronoun "you" within 21 seconds or sooner.
Use detail to invite the listener in...and tell them how good/bad that "you" is.
As all the 9 #1s are aimed at radio, whether streaming or not, dancing or not, get to the first use of title in one minute or less and have a dead end.
If you're aiming at under 100 BPM, all of them were between 80 and 86 BPM.
.....and that gender issue, I won't touch at all... "

Source: https://murphyslawsofsongwriting.com/1- ... harts-2016

So it's complicated. The more 'common' your structure is, the more closely it conforms to listener's expectations, the more likely more listeners will 'get' it. On the other hand, there's more than one way to structure a song, and that's determined in part by what you have to say and by the genre you're writing in. I would encourage you to try all the common song forms, and see which ones you prefer. After all, you have to learn the "rules" before you learn how (and when) to break them.

Best of luck, whatever structure you choose.