Orchestral panning

[annayarbrough]

Just outta curiosity - do you orchestral/trailer folk always adhere to traditional orchestral panning?

Working on some string parts right now which are accompanying a piano played from the position of the artist instead of the audience. Traditional panning doesn't really work for this/sounds a little weird so I'm doing something different.

Which made me wonder what is normally 'expected' by the ears of those who specialize in orchestral music (subconsciously or otherwise). How often to you push traditional boundaries versus writing for what's expected?

This doesn't really have any bearing on what I'm doing, I'm just geeking out

[ComposerLDG]

Hi Anna,

Funny you should bring this up. I've become a bit more pan-conscious lately after taking a couple of Udemy courses. I do a lot of string parts, and started recording each part on separate tracks and giving each one about a +/- 5 either way. I like the sound of each part slightly off center.

[markhimley]

IMHO I think it all comes down to the final product, the end use, and the audience. If you're trying to make authentic sounding symphonic music? Yes, panning matters. Or trying to recreate any version of an orchestral ensemble with the intention of it sounding like it was recorded with a live orchestra. Even there though, the lines are blurring. For some orchestral styles, the panning/seating is being changed to accommodate modern trends and/or mix needs - an obvious and slightly extreme example would be Hans Zimmer and the Inception score. Traditional panning can cause lots of problems if you're making hybrid styles - i.e. you're adding a full orchestra to other non-orchestral elements. If your non-orchestral elements follow the sort of standard bass in the middle and higher parts panned out - that doesn't flow with the classic orchestral seating with basses/cellos on the right and such.

One thing to consider, I've noticed in a lot of Ludovico's stuff, along with some other piano+string music, the piano is panned from the player's view, but the orchestra is panned from the audience's view. I think this works really nicely and has a nice balance. Obviously you get this - but to anyone who may be reading and not totally understand that - the piano would have lower register on the left with higher register on the right while the orchestra is the mirror of that - cellos/basses on the right, violins and violas on the left.

At the end of the day, the song is king IMHO. Do what serves the music the best. Either way you go, some people will agree and some people will disagree.

[Len911]

If bass is omni-directional it might seem odd if it was panned according to seating position. So it makes sense to me that a stereo recording of an orchestra might sound much different than a mono track panned to the direction of the seating placement. Maybe that's why bass has been historically panned center in mixing for recording.
"When a person hears sounds of limited wavelengths, the head functions as a screen. If the sound comes from a direction to the right of the face, the head will prevent the sound waves from reaching the left ear. Deep base sounds, on the other hand, have a larger wavelength, and the head will not prevent the sound waves from reaching both ears."https://www.hear-it.org/The-direction-of-sound

So line of sight doesn't necessarily correlate with the way we hear, so panning is for hearing not seeing.

[annayarbrough]

Hi Anna,

Funny you should bring this up. I've become a bit more pan-conscious lately after taking a couple of Udemy courses. I do a lot of string parts, and started recording each part on separate tracks and giving each one about a +/- 5 either way. I like the sound of each part slightly off center.

Interesting you mention that, Loren... I've always seen so many string sessions where the pan has been wider, but I seem to prefer it just slightly off center myself. Of course, I'm not scoring a full orchestra so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. But I like that subtle 'still in your head' sensation

[annayarbrough]

IMHO I think it all comes down to the final product, the end use, and the audience. If you're trying to make authentic sounding symphonic music? Yes, panning matters. Or trying to recreate any version of an orchestral ensemble with the intention of it sounding like it was recorded with a live orchestra. Even there though, the lines are blurring. For some orchestral styles, the panning/seating is being changed to accommodate modern trends and/or mix needs - an obvious and slightly extreme example would be Hans Zimmer and the Inception score. Traditional panning can cause lots of problems if you're making hybrid styles - i.e. you're adding a full orchestra to other non-orchestral elements. If your non-orchestral elements follow the sort of standard bass in the middle and higher parts panned out - that doesn't flow with the classic orchestral seating with basses/cellos on the right and such.

One thing to consider, I've noticed in a lot of Ludovico's stuff, along with some other piano+string music, the piano is panned from the player's view, but the orchestra is panned from the audience's view. I think this works really nicely and has a nice balance. Obviously you get this - but to anyone who may be reading and not totally understand that - the piano would have lower register on the left with higher register on the right while the orchestra is the mirror of that - cellos/basses on the right, violins and violas on the left.

At the end of the day, the song is king IMHO. Do what serves the music the best. Either way you go, some people will agree and some people will disagree.

Yeah that's what I ended up thinking - trust the gut.
I've actually been listening to a ton of Einaudi while researching for this project - he's doing some really interesting things with string panning.... particularly on the ones where he has some background strings as well as a solo focus string instrument. (Maybe Divenire album? Can't recall). Doesn't seem to favor a particularly wide pan, either... I like the way everything sits.

[annayarbrough]

If bass is omni-directional it might seem odd if it was panned according to seating position. So it makes sense to me that a stereo recording of an orchestra might sound much different than a mono track panned to the direction of the seating placement. Maybe that's why bass has been historically panned center in mixing for recording.
"When a person hears sounds of limited wavelengths, the head functions as a screen. If the sound comes from a direction to the right of the face, the head will prevent the sound waves from reaching the left ear. Deep base sounds, on the other hand, have a larger wavelength, and the head will not prevent the sound waves from reaching both ears."https://www.hear-it.org/The-direction-of-sound

So line of sight doesn't necessarily correlate with the way we hear, so panning is for hearing not seeing.

Yeah that's super interesting. Hadn't really thought much about it from that perspective... totally makes sense

[ResonantTone]

I don't have any experience with orchestral panning, but here's something I learned and apply to my own production techniques. I read this a few years back and it stuck with me.

"Trust your ears above everything"

In other words, get all the thoughts and advice you can, try stuff out and do it a few different ways, then make the call on what sounds best to you regardless if it is standard practice or not. If it sounds good, it is good!

Best of luck to you!

Andrew

[cosmicdolphin]

I ignore convention and just pan for what sounds balanced

[Len911]

The thing I've learned is that there is a difference between art and artisan. You don't necessarily need to be an artisan to create art, it's just that it is more likely, on more occasions. An art is something that is appreciated by many people, nothing exclusive to one's self. You can make a case that your piece is artisan, or is crafty,but never whether it's art. Art appreciation is probably more about admiring the craftsmanship than admiring the art. Ego might have a place in artisanship, but it seems worthless in art.

As it applies to Taxi, where most of my opinion has been formed, I see that through the forums, taxi tv, etc that Taxi is really a great place to be educated in artisan, whilst the screener's role is a lesson about art, although the critiques often are lessons in artisanship as well. That's my perspective.