Biz Agreement with a lyricist?

[timothycook]

BACKGROUND:
I have a person whether you call them a poet or a lyricist (mostly country) wants me to help him put music behind his lyrics.
He has no musical knowledge at all. He doesn't play an instrument at all.
He plans to give me YouTube links to songs that represent what he thinks the songs should like so we can develop demos.

I have not collaborated with anyone in any context so far. In fact, I haven't responded to any listings for several months. I took the feedback I got about production for my first few submissions (I had one forward) and have been studying and honing my skills.

He's going to copyright his lyrics even though I have told him that there will likely be a lot of changes before the final lyrics are complete.

QUESTION:
What kind of agreement should we have and who gets what credit(s) in a situation like this?

Thanks,
Tim

[funsongs]

Just one Old-Guy's opinion - anything other than a 50-50 split on the final results/product could get messy,
and a bigger problem than worth the effort to percentage it out, based on who contributed what parts.
Your mileage may vary.
Good luck with all of that... meaning, sincerely - if the original concept/ideas are worth your time, hopefully it will be an adventure worth taking.
Been there - done that.

[timothycook]

Just one Old-Guy's opinion - anything other than a 50-50 split on the final results/product could get messy,

Thanks, Old-Guy, from an old guy. That's the kind of experienced advice I was looking for.

If someone wants Old-Guy advice on data modeling and semantics; I'm your guy. Music Biz, not so much.

[NaeDae]

When it comes to any personal agreement in music between two parties, always either split it 50-50 or have someone pay a one-time fee upfront for 100% ownership of the final product. That said, if this poet is preemptively protecting their poetry, they're probably delusional about just how much goes into the rest of the songwriting/recording process, which means they're probably undervaluing you. It just seems like an all around head-ache basically writing the whole song for someone and then being expected to produce it for free on top of that while still owing them half of the royalties if you manage to get a placement with what you created.

Instead, imagine splitting royalties with a partner who could write good lyrics AND melodies AND play chords AND show up with most of a song ready to play. THAT might be worth giving someone half.

[RPaul]

The note that this person is planning to register copyrights in his lyrics before letting you at them would be something that would make me run the other way as it sounds like paranoia, not to mention it complicates things later on if/when you register the copyright in the song since it will now be a derivative work of the original poem. This is independent of whether you change words or not. I've just had too many bad experiences with co-writers who really don't understand the business side of things and think they've got something you are likely to want to steal. Lack of trust is no way to begin a writing relationship. That can come later.

All that said, if the lyrics are sufficiently good that you feel they'll make a big difference in your songwriting, I would second the 50/50 notion already put forth. Even when a co-writer writes only lyrics and I write only music (which is rare because the lyrics tend to need tweaking 90% or more of the time, even if it is just minor tweaks) I try to get them to agree to credits as being "words and music by" both so that it recognizes the copyright notion of the work's being an indivisible whole, not separate pieces pasted together. So, for example, if the lyrics are printed somewhere, you both get royalties. If an instrumental version of the song is done, you both get royalties.

Though I've done a lot more music writing than lyric writing in my co-writing relationships (I have done both), I do feel lyrics quality is very important, at least if you're talking about real songs (i.e. that people listen to actively), as opposed to something just meant to be in the background of something else. Yes, the music has to be solid, interesting, etc. That's a given. But the thing that makes the difference between "okay" or "good" and "great", at least for me is usually the lyrics. You can take a song with a pretty good, but not terribly unique, melody, like "Margaritaville", and the difference between its being a catchy tune and a classic song can be found in the lyric. (Despite the lightweight, fun vibe of that song and the surface bits of the lyric, there is a lot of depth in that, not to mention a load of lyric craft.)

Rick

[cosmicdolphin]

It's funny but I've always found these folks who are non-musical but write song lyrics are actually worse at it than the jobbing songwriters who write their own.

I usually avoid them like the plague personally.

Mark

[NaeDae]

bad experiences with co-writers who really don't understand the business side of things and think they've got something you are likely to want to steal.

I had the same experience trying to help a local rapper out. He got all paranoid that I was just gonna steal his subpar recordings for my own profit, as if it was just that easy. Honestly it's as if the less someone contributes, the more they think they're worth for some reason lol.

[NaeDae]

It's funny but I've always found these folks who are non-musical but write song lyrics are actually worse at it than the jobbing songwriters who write their own.

I usually avoid them like the plague personally.

Mark

That's because lyrics are more than just words, they're phrasing and melody. The poetry exists in the context of a melody and the arrangement. The emotional impact comes from the combination of all those things, so a person just writing some words is naturally going to neglect most of song-writing.

[cosmicdolphin]

It's funny but I've always found these folks who are non-musical but write song lyrics are actually worse at it than the jobbing songwriters who write their own.

I usually avoid them like the plague personally.

Mark

That's because lyrics are more than just words, they're phrasing and melody. The poetry exists in the context of a melody and the arrangement. The emotional impact comes from the combination of all those things, so a person just writing some words is naturally going to neglect most of song-writing.

They make good Vogons

[Kolstad]

I would avoid this scenario, unless it is an accomplished lyricist. Some lyricists are just looking for a free way to have music added to their lyrics, and dont have any sensibility for genre conventions and what’s marketable.

But if you do, start with 50/50 on the (c) only, and keep 100% of the master ℗. That way you avoid the free-demo scenario. If it proves to be a constructive relationship, you can evolve into equal splits and go full 50/50.

But usually collaboration works best if you both are aware of the business involved.