Returned Again 2

[Charlie65]

Here's the second one I submitted for S200313AT

https://soundcloud.com/user-882212830/woohoo

What I like most about this song
Melody lines had some Pop appeal overall.

I think you could improve this song by
Mix not balanced & drum track mechanical & fragmented in places

I returned or forwarded this song because
Thank you Charlie, for the submission.The vocal emulation similar to you're other track, tried too hard too sound like a voice rather then other instruments sharing in the the melodic themes. Cute but overdone & will not work for the listing.
Recorded sound, & Production also had technical concerns.

Style/Genre is off target with the listing request

Melody could be stronger

Hook(s) requested in Listing not present

There are tuning, rhythm, or dissonance issues

Instrumentation feels stiff or over-quantized

Recording/Mix needs improvement

Not Broadcast Quality in context of this listing

I won't make any comments this time... I think you know what they will be.
As before, looking forward to some "real" advice from "real" people.

Cheers

[lesmac]

I agree with what the screener said on both tracks.

Sounds a bit like loops thrown together to me.

If your DAW allows you to create a groove template from a recorded track like Pro tools does with Beat Detective try that.

I do a vamp on acoustic guitar [when I'm in the groove] and save it to the groove clipboard and apply it across midi and elastic enabled audio tracks in the session. Sometimes it works well other times I still have to tweak and tweak.

Take a chill pill and do some more tracks. You may find once the emotion has gone out of it that you see what the comments meant.

It's a bummer but most of us have been there. We're all still learning [I hope}.

[Charlie65]

I agree with what the screener said on both tracks.

Sounds a bit like loops thrown together to me.

If your DAW allows you to create a groove template from a recorded track like Pro tools does with Beat Detective try that.

I do a vamp on acoustic guitar [when I'm in the groove] and save it to the groove clipboard and apply it across midi and elastic enabled audio tracks in the session. Sometimes it works well other times I still have to tweak and tweak.

Take a chill pill and do some more tracks. You may find once the emotion has gone out of it that you see what the comments meant.

It's a bummer but most of us have been there. We're all still learning [I hope}.

Lester,

my main beef is that there's a damn good melody/ hook, whatever you want to call it in verses, choruses, middle eights of both songs... ("Hooks not present"?????) and I'm sorry if it comes across as "loops thrown together because I can assure you it wasn't and the whole "quantise moan, being that it is an 80s Track, still has me baffled... and "Technical Concerns"?

And "Tuning, Rhythm or Dissonance issues" Well, what is it? one or t'other or all three? He (or she) doesn't say.... About as helpful as a chocolate fireguard.

Appreciate your input though!

Cheers

[AlanHall]

Charlie,
I've struggled with the wording too. What I've finally read into the returns I've had is that "hooks requested by the listener" does not refer to melodic (or even musical) 'hooks'. I think it refers more to structural or even extra-musical things ('hooks') that show that the submission is dialed in to the exact need of the listing. It could be an instrument (or instrumental timbre), a stylistic groove thing, or other element that puts the submission in the same playlist as the ref tracks. Yes, vague and irritating. Reading between the lines of the return is an exercise in critical analysis, but with a cool head and a desire to improve, it's what we have to go by. Plus bringing our concerns to the forum, of course

[cassmcentee]

Just listened twice to your opening (first couple of seconds)
Seemed like it had a good start...thought I heard the chance of a good kick and then it disappeared
From then on the mix/groove turned my ears off and I had to stop
I suggest picking a song that has the mix/groove that you are trying to emulate and remix doing a constant A/B comparison.
The vocal sound was repetitive to my ears once it was established as well...
I feel the screener did the best they could with the least amount of words, cryptic as it may be, honest they are...
2 cents
Cass

[Charlie65]

Charlie,
I've struggled with the wording too. What I've finally read into the returns I've had is that "hooks requested by the listener" does not refer to melodic (or even musical) 'hooks'. I think it refers more to structural or even extra-musical things ('hooks') that show that the submission is dialed in to the exact need of the listing. It could be an instrument (or instrumental timbre), a stylistic groove thing, or other element that puts the submission in the same playlist as the ref tracks. Yes, vague and irritating. Reading between the lines of the return is an exercise in critical analysis, but with a cool head and a desire to improve, it's what we have to go by. Plus bringing our concerns to the forum, of course

Alan,

Yeah, maybe you've hit the nail on the head regarding "Hooks". To me (old school) a "Hook" is for example, the "moothie harmonica" in I Should Have Known Better by The Beatles... that's a perfect catchy hook! Maybe it means something different over in the USA or should I say, in the 21st century. I don't know, I struggle with the modern interpretation of things I grew up with being, how can I put it.... changed.
There is one thing out of this... it feels good to get this off my chest and know I'm not the only one.

Cheers Alan

[Charlie65]

Just listened twice to your opening (first couple of seconds)
Seemed like it had a good start...thought I heard the chance of a good kick and then it disappeared
From then on the mix/groove turned my ears off and I had to stop
I suggest picking a song that has the mix/groove that you are trying to emulate and remix doing a constant A/B comparison.
The vocal sound was repetitive to my ears once it was established as well...
I feel the screener did the best they could with the least amount of words, cryptic as it may be, honest they are...
2 cents
Cass

Cass,

each to their own as the saying goes.
I prefer "melody" over "groove" any day of the week but I know "beat", "groove" is king these days.
I don't hear much "kick drum" on any real classic records from the 60s or 70s.. even ones in the 80s. I just listened to "My Sharona" by the "Knack"... nothing up front about the kick drum!
I wouldn't want to hear a bass drum over a bass any time ever.

Cheers

[cassmcentee]

I hear you Charlie,
If the goal is to create music for yourself and not the Film/TV market then nothing matters 'cept what you think!
That is always commendable, I appreciate artistry 100%

[Charlie65]

I hear you Charlie,
If the goal is to create music for yourself and not the Film/TV market then nothing matters 'cept what you think!
That is always commendable, I appreciate artistry 100%

Robert,

yeah, it's a fine line between trying to do your stuff your way but still making it "commercially acceptable" for the people in power, so to speak.
And that is why, I'll probably never make it... 55 years and counting and about more than 40 of those were composing my own tunes.

I suppose it is akin to "selling out" and something that doesn't fit with me. I wrote one cue recently and then thought to myself "what am I doing?" I didn't join Taxi to do cues, I did it to try and push "my music". It was never going to be easy, it never has been!

Cheers Robert

[Charlie65]

Hi Charlie,
I wanted to respond because there were no other replies for you. I was going to open by suggesting that posting comments about reviews in the 'Taxi Review Station' forum might have prompted more replies. You'll see many similar posts in there, and studying those can be enlightening. By the time I'd finished my response though, I'm glad to see that several others had turned up!

Please excuse me if any of the following comes across as patronising in any way. I don't intend it to. I simply offer these thoughts as a little perspective on forwards and returns.

We've all had returns and feedback we don't agree with, and even the most experienced composers still get them. Why? It's largely because the screeners are doing their job, using their knowledge and experience of industry standards, their familiarity with genre in question, and their understanding of the listing requirements. Sometimes even the best music just doesn't fit, and whether we like it or not, returns are usually for genuine reasons, as judged by folk who genuinely know more about it than we do.

If you think about it, the library who ran the listing is keen to find new music, but only want what they asked for. The screeners are keen to be successful in finding it, but wouldn't want to waste the library's time by sending anything off-target or sub-par. Some library owners even do the screening themselves, but in any case, why would they turn music down if they thought it was on-the-nail? Therefore, there's a high chance that when they return a track they do so with good reason.

Furthermore, getting past the screener is only the first step anyway, and the library wouldn't show any interest in anything off-target or sub-par. A whole lot of the forwarded tracks still don't get deals (at least a hundred of mine for example), so even if the screeners forwarded absolutely every submission, the end result would be the same (except that the library would never come back to Taxi).

Although the screeners are only the first filter, they're a good reflection of industry expectations. Our music has to compete with that from all the best composers with all the best kit, so 'good' is not necessarily 'good enough'. Consequently, rejection is something we all have to get used to, and have to get beyond. If we can't do that we might as well make music just to please ourselves. Be prepared for plenty more rejection beyond Taxi, where the best libraries are very selective and set a really high bar. There's also acceptance though, and when you get things right its all the more sweet having fought the battle.

I should also say that music from the 80's that you refer to (or from any other previous decade for that matter) doesn't necessarily work for TV sync now. There are listings for retro-influenced tracks, but most TV shows want music that reflects current trends, otherwise the show would sound dated even before release. Again, like it or not, that's the reality that we have to accept. One way around that is to make 'timeless' music that ages well without sounding dated. Pop music is extremely fashionable, and changes at a fast pace, so maybe that's not a genre to back unless you're a huge fan of current pop and emerging artist releases.

With all of that in mind, I listened to your tracks and although the screener's comments are quite brief and don't seem particularly helpful, I have to say that I agree with them on the mix, stiffness, and vocal emulation, but that's just my personal view (with no claim of expertise). If you're open to treating your returns as a learning experience and working out how to get closer to what what was wanted, then there's a lot of value there. I've not listened to the ref tracks, or the tracks that were actually forwarded, but you might find it very helpful to do both of those things. Consider what it is about those forwarded tracks that got them through. Try A-B-ing them against your tracks and focusing on where yours measure up, but more importantly, where they might not (with reference to the listing specification). That is often a good lesson, and is far healthier than 'fizzing' about it . You might also visit the 'Forwards' forum and listen to the tracks that are getting through for other listings, and again, consider why those tracks made the cut. How do they compare with yours?

If you want to ask more specific questions about tickling up your tracks, then there are many here who are far more qualified than I am to help. Another suggestion would be to post your tracks in the 'Peer to Peer' forum before you submit them for future listings. That's a great way to learn what others hear in your music that you might never have considered, and you might also flush out any 'bogies' before you put your $5 bet on one.

I hope some of that helps in some small way Charlie, even if its not what you wanted to hear, but it is my 'real' person opinion.

Have fun and good luck with your music!

Hello Graham,

first of all, many thanks for taking the time to put your point across... you sound like you've very much been there and bought the T-shirt! Lots of good advice, I really don't know where to start.
I will definitely start doing a comparison - the only comparison I do currently, is when I do a final mix - I try and match it, in all ways, against many different bands etc. I've always struggled with the sheer "clinical" sound of modern equipment and I do try and add a bit of old fashioned grit to my stuff. Maybe that's to my detriment but I do think it's important to carve out your own identity... imagine if Slade had tried to sound like the Monkees for example, ha ha!

I'll certainly do the "peer to peer" test... it's nice to get other people's perspective, even if it's a "nice sound" or "doesn't fit the criteria mate" or "what's up with that guitar" etc.

Timeless music... now that is the real goal!

Cheers Graham