Requesting Advice - strings need more realism

[RiffKitten]

Hey everyone,

I'll be honest - this is tough for me to post, because I think for some time I've overestimated my abilities with a virtual orchestra. Luckily, though, the screeners have been very constructive - I also know that this is likely a good place to come to for advice.

In my year or so of membership, I've maybe squeaked two out of a dozen orchestral pieces by various TAXI screeners for a forward. Although I've gotten some excellent suggestions regarding my composition, the more common theme is that my tracks need more realism. For the record, I use various Spitfire Audio patches, which (I think) are touted as being very good (sounds good to my ears). This makes me think that the issue may be my programming and possibly my 'idea' of what an orchestra is supposed to sound like, not the virtual instruments themselves. Perhaps I need more layering of orchestral instruments?

I'll let you be the judge. Here is one piece that was returned for a recent nature documentary listing: https://www.taxi.com/members/Y5pvjOVZR2 ... of-wonders

While the screener liked the track, he/she specifically said that the strings sounded over-quantized and slightly unrealistic (on reflection, I have to agree).

I'd love to know if any of you have some advice, tips, or tricks for creating more authentic virtual instrument performances for orchestra. Thank you in advance for your time and consideration, it's hugely appreciated!

Andrew

[macomposer]

Hey Andrew,

This is gorgeous! Reminds me very much of the Gilded Age, Downton Abbey type music.

I think this is super super close to being done, but it's down (always) to those pesky, super critical details.

So the first thing that hit my ears was the space. Spitfire stuff is mostly very wet, except for a few libraries, and while it has a very lovely space, unless you "dry up" their sound, it can sound just a bit... not right.. So the strings sounded a bit too wet... but if you had matched the space with the brass, winds, percussion and piano, it might have worked.. When the piano enters, for me, it falls apart. Also, the celeste that comes in earlier also doesn't fit the space. The piano is super close - gorgeous, but it sounded like it was not with the orchestra at all.

So, the first thing I would do is study your libraries and see what spaces they're in.. This sound like Air Lynhurst, but maybe it was the skating ring (BBCSQ). It didn't sound to me like Abbey Road, but maybe I'm wrong. At any rate, review where every library is, and then determine which space you want... If you choose Air Lynhurst, then just listen closely and get your libraries to match through judicious mixing. There are a few different ways to do it, and I think Spitfire even has a video with Jake Johnson talking about his approach to space matching.

I can't remember where I got mine as it's probably a combination hack of Jake Johnson, Alan Meyerson, Dennis Sands, etc. I use one hall, then through pre-delay, feed different sections to the hall. So the brass for example is in the back, so there's no pre-delay - it just goes straight to the verb. Depending on where the Brass is recorded will also determine how much I send to it too. Winds are longish pre-delay then verb, and strings (in the front) are short pre-delay then verb. Percussion is usually in a chamber (separate reverb), and there may be a separate plate to finish it all off.

For the stiffness thing, going through and slightly moving notes here and there can help that. It doesn't need to be much. The better approach I think, is to layer each line with a different orchestra. Because every sample library is.... sampled differently, layering usually automatically adds a layer of complexity to the sound that makes it more realistic. But again, it's those pesky details. For example, I'll often layer Spitfire Symphonic Violins 1 with Orchestral Tools Berlin Strings Violins 1. (Berlin is very dry, so you get more attack on each note, more bite, and that helps, and it gives it a presence that is sometimes lacking with Spitfire.) But you have to be really careful with your volumes and automation because you don't want a super orchestra (not realistic). On the other hand, a few well-known friends of mine always say to me and my students, when it comes to virtual orchestration, less is not more, more is more! Just be careful.

So mix and match as much as you can. It doesn't even have to be the most expensive stuff either. I saw a video of Danny Elfman's template once, and he had Sonivox and patches from like a Roland JV-1080 or something in there. So use what you have and just always ride volume and expression, and you'll get there It's really good!!!

Best,
- Mark

[BradleyHagen]

I am in somewhat of the same boat as the op, so I appreciate the comments as well!

[VanderBoegh]

Great composition! Really good track from top top bottom.

The only piece of it that stuck out to me was when the piano took the melody, at 1:10 - in my opinion, a piano on a live orchestral stage wouldn't sound that loud in comparison to the full orchestra (would there even be a piano on the stage?). But once it steps aside and plays a more backing role in the following section, that volume seems to be fitting for what it would probably sound like if it WERE sharing the stage with a 40-50 piece orchestra.

One thing to consider: there was a guy who posted here about 3-4 months ago who is violin / string player. His playing was impeccable, and I think he does all his recording on his own. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but maybe you could search these forums to find him. If you could layer one single live track with a real violinist on top of this, your sound would instantly sound real and full of life.

~~Matt

EDIT: found him. See if this link works: first-library-deal-a-direct-result-of-a ... 51749.html

[RiffKitten]

Hey Andrew,

This is gorgeous! Reminds me very much of the Gilded Age, Downton Abbey type music.

I think this is super super close to being done, but it's down (always) to those pesky, super critical details.

So the first thing that hit my ears was the space. Spitfire stuff is mostly very wet, except for a few libraries, and while it has a very lovely space, unless you "dry up" their sound, it can sound just a bit... not right.. So the strings sounded a bit too wet... but if you had matched the space with the brass, winds, percussion and piano, it might have worked.. When the piano enters, for me, it falls apart. Also, the celeste that comes in earlier also doesn't fit the space. The piano is super close - gorgeous, but it sounded like it was not with the orchestra at all.

So, the first thing I would do is study your libraries and see what spaces they're in.. This sound like Air Lynhurst, but maybe it was the skating ring (BBCSQ). It didn't sound to me like Abbey Road, but maybe I'm wrong. At any rate, review where every library is, and then determine which space you want... If you choose Air Lynhurst, then just listen closely and get your libraries to match through judicious mixing. There are a few different ways to do it, and I think Spitfire even has a video with Jake Johnson talking about his approach to space matching.

I can't remember where I got mine as it's probably a combination hack of Jake Johnson, Alan Meyerson, Dennis Sands, etc. I use one hall, then through pre-delay, feed different sections to the hall. So the brass for example is in the back, so there's no pre-delay - it just goes straight to the verb. Depending on where the Brass is recorded will also determine how much I send to it too. Winds are longish pre-delay then verb, and strings (in the front) are short pre-delay then verb. Percussion is usually in a chamber (separate reverb), and there may be a separate plate to finish it all off.

For the stiffness thing, going through and slightly moving notes here and there can help that. It doesn't need to be much. The better approach I think, is to layer each line with a different orchestra. Because every sample library is.... sampled differently, layering usually automatically adds a layer of complexity to the sound that makes it more realistic. But again, it's those pesky details. For example, I'll often layer Spitfire Symphonic Violins 1 with Orchestral Tools Berlin Strings Violins 1. (Berlin is very dry, so you get more attack on each note, more bite, and that helps, and it gives it a presence that is sometimes lacking with Spitfire.) But you have to be really careful with your volumes and automation because you don't want a super orchestra (not realistic). On the other hand, a few well-known friends of mine always say to me and my students, when it comes to virtual orchestration, less is not more, more is more! Just be careful.

So mix and match as much as you can. It doesn't even have to be the most expensive stuff either. I saw a video of Danny Elfman's template once, and he had Sonivox and patches from like a Roland JV-1080 or something in there. So use what you have and just always ride volume and expression, and you'll get there It's really good!!!

Best,
- Mark

Mark, thank you so, so much for your thoughtful and in-depth response! I was feeling very discouraged by this recent run of listing results - now I feel the exact opposite - encouraged and motivated to learn more and improve my orchestra productions.

I'm so glad that you liked this piece overall and took the time to listen.

The screener did mention the over-wetness of the production, but without elaboration I was a bit unsure of what to do next. Now I have some tangible ideas and techniques that I can take to get this piece sounding it's best!

It's fascinating to hear how you approach 'space' in an orchestral production - definitely more complex than what I've been doing, though it makes complete sense.

Very interesting that more can be more. I do have some other decent orchestra plugins that I can experiment with in terms of layering - it makes sense that combining patches may create a more authentic sound - I think I'll deep dive into the plugins I have and see what textures I can come up with (while being wary of the super-orchestra effect ) I'll look into Berlin Strings as an option, also.

Thanks again - your post made my morning, as music is everything to me and I want to get my orchestra productions up to the highest standard!



Andrew

[RiffKitten]

Yes, 100% agree with Mark, its mostly the space thing, particularly with the piano and celeste. He's also given you some great advice so I hope it helps you get the most from this lovely piece.

Also, you've probably seen 'realism' addressed by Marc Jovani and Guy Michelmore on Youtube, but if not....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUmStR0kWh4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeXwvpRWqoo

Thanks Telefunkin! I couldn't have asked for better advice, it's exactly what I needed. I haven't seen those links, actually - I'll check them out later today. Much appreciated!

[macomposer]

So all this talk got me thinking about where I was getting my information, so here are a few free resources on this subject that I have used in the past. There are probably others and if I can find them, I'll update this.

Mattias Westlund: Orchestral Positioning - Reverb in Theory
Mattias Westlund: Orchestral Positioning - Reverb in Practice
Waves Masterclass - Mixing the Wonder Woman Film Score (Alan Meyerson)

[RiffKitten]

Great composition! Really good track from top top bottom.

The only piece of it that stuck out to me was when the piano took the melody, at 1:10 - in my opinion, a piano on a live orchestral stage wouldn't sound that loud in comparison to the full orchestra (would there even be a piano on the stage?). But once it steps aside and plays a more backing role in the following section, that volume seems to be fitting for what it would probably sound like if it WERE sharing the stage with a 40-50 piece orchestra.

One thing to consider: there was a guy who posted here about 3-4 months ago who is violin / string player. His playing was impeccable, and I think he does all his recording on his own. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but maybe you could search these forums to find him. If you could layer one single live track with a real violinist on top of this, your sound would instantly sound real and full of life.

~~Matt

EDIT: found him. See if this link works: first-library-deal-a-direct-result-of-a ... 51749.html

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your feedback! I hear what you mean about the piano, it's way too prominent and close when it first comes in.

I checked out that violin player's music, and wow, I can really hear what you mean. Just that one live aspect adds so much. I think something like that would take this track to the next level. I also release Electro-Swing as a streaming artist, and occasionally I'll spring for a live recorded horn or two - it can make all the difference. For some reason, though, I've never considered doing the same for my cinematic music.

[RiffKitten]

So all this talk got me thinking about where I was getting my information, so here are a few free resources on this subject that I have used in the past. There are probably others and if I can find them, I'll update this.

Mattias Westlund: Orchestral Positioning - Reverb in Theory
Mattias Westlund: Orchestral Positioning - Reverb in Practice
Waves Masterclass - Mixing the Wonder Woman Film Score (Alan Meyerson)

Thank you for the resources, Mark! These are gems. Looking forward to getting some of this under my belt before I submit to another orchestral listing. The goods news is, it sounds like I won't need to spring for an impossibly expensive library. I'm so glad that there are some techniques to try and knowledge to learn to get my music where I'd like it to be. And yes, feel free to post more resources if you find them - it's been very helpful

Andrew

[BradleyHagen]

So all this talk got me thinking about where I was getting my information, so here are a few free resources on this subject that I have used in the past. There are probably others and if I can find them, I'll update this.

Mattias Westlund: Orchestral Positioning - Reverb in Theory
Mattias Westlund: Orchestral Positioning - Reverb in Practice
Waves Masterclass - Mixing the Wonder Woman Film Score (Alan Meyerson)

Thank you for the resources, Mark! These are gems. Looking forward to getting some of this under my belt before I submit to another orchestral listing. The goods news is, it sounds like I won't need to spring for an impossibly expensive library. I'm so glad that there are some techniques to try and knowledge to learn to get my music where I'd like it to be. And yes, feel free to post more resources if you find them - it's been very helpful

Andrew

YESSSS! Thank you as well Mark!