Credit on an instrumental derivative?

[clonsberry]

Hello to all my Taxi friends! Long time no talk to!And, of course, I come back with hat in hand needing to gleen some of your wisdom.Let's say.. for discussion's sake.. that I play guitar as half of an instrumental duet. We often co-write our pieces. The other person (we can call him Bob) sometimes writes more.. sometimes I do. And in those instances, when we play the pieces together, we take joint credit. Cool. Everybody's happy.Now here's the rub.. I come into the studio with what's really the foundation of a piece. Chords, progressions.. almost everything. "Bob" lays another instrument.. let's say.. piano.. over it and the music is beautiful. Then Bob goes out and plays it without the guitar as a solo instrumental. It's still VERY much the same music and even carries the same title. But Bob lists himself as the sole author because "he wrote the piano piece".It may be petty of me but, since I'm not getting any money out of it, I'd at least like people to know that the foundational idea is mine. Honorable mention.. something. I hear the other version and it just doesn't seem right that I have no claim to it because, even though it's a different instrument, it's still "my" piece.I have no intention of taking any kind of legal action because of my longstanding relationship with "Bob". (no.. not THAT kind of relationship). But I'd like to have some resolution, at least in my head. And, besides, it's not like he's buying yachts with the truckloads of money he's making either.But I'd really like to know, from a legal and/or ethical standpoint, what do you think? Do I just need to get over it cause that's how it goes? Or do I have a reasonable right to tell him I'd like partial or full credit?Thanks very much in advance!- Chris

[sgs4u]

I am not a lawyer. Nov 18, 2009, 6:45am, clonsberry wrote:...But Bob lists himself as the sole author because "he wrote the piano piece"Can't copyright a bunch of chords... soWho is he playing it for, and why do you need those people to know your name?It's perfectly acceptable that you want your name heard... but ask yourself why. Now, have you actually talked to Bob about this? Do you have resistance to talking to him bout it? Or does he have a history of resistance to your suggestions? Quote:It may be petty of me but, since I'm not getting any money out of it, I'd at least like people to know that the foundational idea is mine. Honorable mention.Well it's not petty, but you still need to understand what your goal or feeling you want to have. You're feeling "not good" and you just want to feel good about it. All that will take is releasing the tension you're hanging onto. Quote:I hear the other version and it just doesn't seem right that I have no claim to it because, even though it's a different instrument, it's still "my" piece.Who registered the piece? Does that even matter? Is this about who has the rights to try and make money with it? Is Bob making money with playing the piece you created together? Or is he just playing a piano version of a piece you guys were messing around with? Or is he just playing it as one song of 40 or so at a piano lounge gig, maybe trying to make himself look good for tips?Quote:I have no intention of taking any kind of legal action because of my longstanding relationship with "Bob". (no.. not THAT kind of relationship). But I'd like to have some resolution, at least in my head. And, besides, it's not like he's buying yachts with the truckloads of money he's making either.1) buy him a beer and tell him your truth, in as few words as possible2) go to his gig, get drunk and yell at him to tell the truth about who wrote the song3) punch him out, and end your relationship with him4) glue some piano notes together or drop some guitar picks in between the notes of his keyboard... that'll show him5) start terrible gossip about your friend...Obviously, there is only one option...Quote:But I'd really like to know, from a legal and/or ethical standpoint, what do you think? Do I just need to get over it cause that's how it goes? Or do I have a reasonable right to tell him I'd like partial or full credit?if there is no money involved, the legal issues are MOOT, and a big waste of your energy. Get over it, or ruin your friendship. Find more guys to collaborate with (Taxi members are very open to discussing and implementing the ground rules of co-writing, but every relationship is different.) You have a reasonable expectation that he share the credit, expecting full credit when he actually played and wrote the piano part is off the list.Before anyone gets their shorts in a knot, Chris and I are friends & I feel perfectly secure with my advice. Quote:Thanks very much in advance!- Chrisps: Musical monogamy sucks, in my experience.

[Casey H]

You should have co-writer credit. It's not at all unreasonable. I think you should establish with Bob that all your work together is a partnership to be split 50/50. Sometimes you'll do more, sometimes he'll do more. But it all comes out in the wash... Lennon is a co-writer on Yesterday... Casey

[hummingbird]

My first question is... why haven't you already talked to Bob about this? Sit down over coffee or a beer and say... 'hey, you know that track we wrote (name) - I love how you play it. Shall we add it to our co-writing agreement?'

[clonsberry]

Nov 18, 2009, 11:32am, hummingbird wrote:Shall we add it to our co-writing agreement?'Well, if we talk about the version with guitar and piano, it is co-written and he's all good with that. The problem is the solo version of it. In his mind, he wrote his piece of it so it's his. In my mind, it's like Stevie Ray Vaughn [moment of silence goes here] playing Taxman. Sure, it was Stevie's leads and interpretation but I believe it was still credited to Lennon/McCartney. Now, it may be a little different because there's a lyrical aspect in that case, which gives it a distinctiveness of it's own.Ah well, I guess I can just be the bigger man and let it go. If that one instrumental piece is the pinnacle of my achievements, then my "career" wasn't worth much anyway. I'll just have to write 10 things that are better . All in all, it seemed like a much more important question this morning.Besides, I'm not gonna let him steal my music AND buy him a beer. Kidding.. just kidding. Well.. I'm kidding about him stealing the music.. I'm serious about not buying him a beer - Chris

[jonathanm]

Nov 18, 2009, 12:24pm, clonsberry wrote:In my mind, it's like Stevie Ray Vaughn [moment of silence goes here] playing Taxman. Sure, it was Stevie's leads and interpretation but I believe it was still credited to Lennon/McCartney.Actually, it's Harrison's. Again, if no money is involved, it's just pride. You can either work it out, keep silent, or part ways.If money's involved, it pays to work it out...and register it.

[mojobone]

Your partner is engaging in some annoying behavior, but that's all it is. If he needs to feel that he wrote your song for some sick reason, you should feel free to feel superior to him, (even do the superior dance, in private) it's just probably better you don't mention it to him.

[cardell]

This is a good question Chris! I have wondered the same thing.I am mainly a vocalist. I often write a melody/lyric to other peoples instrumental beds. Now, if I take my melody/lyric (that was inspired by someone else's work) and completely change/re-write/recorded the underlying music bed, would the work now be solely mine?Stuart

[hummingbird]

Nov 22, 2009, 10:46am, cardell wrote:This is a good question Chris! I have wondered the same thing.I am mainly a vocalist. I often write a melody/lyric to other peoples instrumental beds. Now, if I take my melody/lyric (that was inspired by someone else's work) and completely change/re-write/recorded the underlying music bed, would the work now be solely mine?StuartNo. One song, one copyright. It could argued you never would have come up with your melody without the inspiration of their bedtrack. Once you put the two together, it's one song. If I was writing with you (no matter which 'part' of the song you supplied), this would be written into the co-writing agreement. Otherwise, why co-write? Do it all yourself.

[davewalton]

I have the philosophy that "co-write" means any part of the final product. Jacqueline and I did a German language pop-punk track sometime back. I got it placed into a library but without vocals... just the music bed which, technically, I wrote and recorded, etc. But, that music bed never would have come about without Jacqueline, the idea to do a pop-punk track in the first place. So she's a 50/50 co-writer on the instrumental track or would be on any mutation of that original track just like I believe she should be. Of course I'm telling you something you already know... the guy shouldn't be taking something he wouldn't have created had it not been for your co-write to begin with but I was sitting around with extra time here and thought I'd throw this out FWIW.I'd still like the be the coffee fetcher that Jeff Steele talked about... the one that says one little thing during a writing session and gets a 1/3 co-write on a hit song.