Am I a co-writer or 'just' an arranger ?

[hummingbird]

Nov 25, 2008, 1:43am, sgs4u wrote:Nov 24, 2008, 11:48pm, hummingbird wrote:If I were working with you, and I was the one who sent you the sung melody/lyrics, you would be my co-writer, 50-50.--Hummin'birdReally Vikki? If you were paying a producer, to produce your record, you would also give them 50% writer's credit, to finish helping write and arrange tunes? Wow, I hope more artists think like you. If they HELP WRITE then you need to come to some kind of agreement. She's paying him to PRODUCE everything, but this ONE SONG he actually helped WRITE. So the two of THEM need to decide what is fair in this instance and PUT IT IN WRITING.In fact - this should have been done before work began.

[sgs4u]

Nov 25, 2008, 9:00am, hummingbird wrote:Nov 25, 2008, 1:43am, sgs4u wrote:Really Vikki? If you were paying a producer, to produce your record, you would also give them 50% writer's credit, to finish helping write and arrange tunes? Wow, I hope more artists think like you. If they HELP WRITE then you need to come to some kind of agreement. She's paying him to PRODUCE everything, but this ONE SONG he actually helped WRITE. So the two of THEM need to decide what is fair in this instance and PUT IT IN WRITING.In fact - this should have been done before work began.What should have been done previously, doesn't help the situation that much tho V. Gotta work with the situation the way it is now. Above all else, Felix has a job he's been hired to do. If this co-writing conversation with the singer doesn't go well, unfortunately that could really have an impact on how the whole project turns out. It's an important mitigating factor. Some people really don't want to split songwriting credits with a producer when they're being paid, so it's worth treading carefully. That's understandable, because a lot of people think that when a producer gets paid up front and also the back end of a deal, it appears somewhat extra producer friendly. There are many songwriting groups that vociferously argue that producers should not be paid to co-write songs. The problem is really about perception. I have no problem with Felix getting paid to produce, arrange or whatever else he is able to negotiate for his services. I simply know that a lot of singers and especially songwriters, draw a line in the sand between paying a producer, and splitting writer points with that person. I think Felix and the artist should both agree to what they think is fair, and move on quickly.A lot of times, when a person is doing their first record, negotiating for writer points is not in a producer's best interest because you always want that client saying really good things about the experience. And client's don't speak well of producers who grind them for points or cash. And points on something that doesn't have a serious marketing plan behind it, are moot. That's a joke, The writer points are moot. And with most production deals, a producer will have negotiated some kind of deal to be paid an extra percentage when the number of units sold, exceeds an agreed to, threshold.

[billg]

Well, two people can work out any sort of agreement that makes them happy . . . BUT if you didn't change the melody or the lyrics then you are the producer.

[sgs4u]

Nov 25, 2008, 10:13am, billg wrote:Well, two people can work out any sort of agreement that makes them happy . . . BUT if you didn't change the melody or the lyrics then you are the producer. I totally agree. However, producer's get hired because of their experience, knowledge and connections. But what if a producer suggests some new idea, something crucial, to a better version of a song? Do you cut them in for 50%? I dunno... Artists generally WANT a producer to tell them what is awesome, acceptable, or what needs changing. A producer who sits back and withholds great suggestions because they aren't included as a writer, isn't someone I wanna work with. To me the whole thing is about co-creating. If we could throw out the old paradigms, I'd like it more. People collaborate, make a product and somehow share in the revenue and expenses. It would be good if there was some kind of on-line multiple choice questionnaire that people could use to figure out these things without resorting to remembering or quoting how things used to be done.Because there aren't any more record deals out there. (Ok VERY few, fewer than ever) The business of selling CD's has changed so much in the last 20 years, and it's never going to be the same. That's not a good or bad thing, it just is. Whoever adapts the quickest, wins.

[andreh]

Some humble thoughts on a few things I've read on this thread:- It's not unheard of for a producer to write songs for/with the artist being produced. Yes, it should be decided upfront what kind of writers' split will exist for each track.- It's common for a producer to receive upfront money AND points on the [rarely-seen] back-end. These points are actually separate from any agreed-upon writer's share going to the producer.- In the OP's case, I would probably suggest a 75/25 writers' split in the artist's favor since she came in with the lyrics and melody, but still needed a chord progression built around them. Sometimes an even split on any co-writes makes things easier (all parties just do everything they can to make a great song), but this track had a head-start from the artist. - As several others have stated, you can come to whatever sort of agreement makes you all happy.- There are plenty of ways to be "cool" and easy to work with without giving up what's fairly yours. Be generous, sure...always round hours and dollars down in your client's favor. But if your work is great, people will be willing to pay you for it...if they have any money, that is. André

[sgs4u]

Nov 25, 2008, 10:44am, andreh wrote:Some humble thoughts on a few things I've read on this thread:- It's not unheard of for a producer to write songs for/with the artist being produced. Yes, it should be decided upfront what kind of writers' split will exist for each track.- It's common for a producer to receive upfront money AND points on the [rarely-seen] back-end. These points are actually separate from any agreed-upon writer's share going to the producer.- In the OP's case, I would probably suggest a 75/25 writers' split in the artist's favor since she came in with the lyrics and melody, but still needed a chord progression built around them. Sometimes an even split on any co-writes makes things easier (all parties just do everything they can to make a great song), but this track had a head-start from the artist. - As several others have stated, you can come to whatever sort of agreement makes you all happy.- There are plenty of ways to be "cool" and easy to work with without giving up what's fairly yours. Be generous, sure...always round hours and dollars down in your client's favor. But if your work is great, people will be willing to pay you for it...if they have any money, that is. AndréListen to this smart guy! He knows of which he speaks!

[twilsbach]

Its really is quite a liquid thing. There is no set answer. Like if ask ten different people want fare they paid for an aisle seat on a coach flight from LaGuardia to LAX and you'll get ten different figures.The work and the compensation that Brian Eno got for producing U2's last record is certainly different than what John Shanks did producing Ashlee Simpson's latest.I think I'm rambling. What I'm actually doing is avoiding the terribly boring work I'm doing today.

[mojobone]

There are other alternatives as well. If you think the song is likely to do well, consider signing the singer/writer to a publishing deal and let her keep the writer's share.

[hazineju]

i guess the murky part for me is that you may have done some of the writing. i mean, there weren't any chords under her melody, you wrote the chords? and also, you may not have changed the notes of the melody but it sounds like you changed the rhythms to give it structure and meter. that said, i produced a song for a friend once who had chords, melody, and lyrics but not much rhythm, i had to make it fit into a 4/4 meter. i didn't even think to ask for writers credit however because we are good friends and i don't have much producing experience so i just wanted it to be a positive experience for both of us. everyone here had some really good points and ideas, and i think it's like tim w said, there's really not a set answer. for me if i'm paying a producer i would not give them writers credit. but i would come to them with a complete and set song. my 2cents!

[claire]

Whatever you decide, you should decide it up front. Be perfectly clear and get it in writing. That saves a lot of misery down the road.Claire