TV/Film Licencing Companies - some advice please!

[barber]

Hey there gang,I am reasonably new to Taxi, joined end of August/beginning of September, and just registered for this forum yesterday. Very helpful actually. I'm based in London, UK and I'm an Aussie gal. Thrilled to have had two of my songs forwarded on two different submissions over the past two weeks. One very moody slow number Blues Day, and one pretty light hearted swingy fusion number, The Num Num Song. Yup, I said light. Anyhoo, I also occasionally submit material through *COMPANY NAME WITHHELD* and recently one of my songs My Roof Has Got A Hole In It was selected by an LA-based music synch company to pitch for an internationally syndicated TV show. Sounds good eh? But then I received a copious amount of paperwork and then shared it with my lawyer and some bods in "the know" saying i needed way more information about the show etc and that the deal was pretty grim. As most of you will understand, we just want more exposure for our music, but i do not believe in the need to exploit myself or my music for a quick fix.So currently i know that the show is aimed at a youthful demographic, is syndicated in the U.S. and the U.K. on the WB network. The show already has a theme tune, and it is not clear what usage my song would be put to. The deal is not so hot though, but the company claim that their terms are very standard:The deal is a 50/50 split of the licencing fee. At the moment all they can tell me is that the licencing fee will be around $750 or above. So when it is converted into sterling, i see diddly squat! They also say that if the licencing fee is less than $2000 they will also take 50% of the royalties. However, they will not collect the royalties on my behalf. Further, because i am a foreigner, they are also saying they have to deduct a further 30% for tax purposes, despite the fact that i will pay tax here in the UK on all my income. Rubbish. I would see about 50 cents of nothing. I am assured by various bods that this need not be the case, but would ideally like some confirmation. Not that many of you will know if you are Yankee-doodles , but i know there are quite a few Aussies, Europeans etc in this community who might face similar issues.So i guess I'm just after a general discussion. I have another tv/film licencing company based in MI potentially interested in about six or so of my songs, so I'd just like to become a bit more educated about how to play this game.Thanks so much in advance and if you fancy checking out my music i guess you can hear it on my taxi profile or at http://www.myspace.com/mirandabarber or http://www.mirandabarber.comLoads 'a love,Miranda x

[davewalton]

Hi Miranda,I think that somone like Gitarrero here on the forum can answer all your questions. He's a Swiss citizen living in Switzerland and has music placed in various US television shows. In general I'll throw out my bit of thinking when it comes to these types of things. Unless it's an out-and-out scam or I'm signing my life away, until I have enough credits that I can pass on these things, I try to consider what it might lead to rather than the value of the deal in and of itself. Let's say I'm next in line to get the deal if you pass on this. So in the next couple of months my website would say "Featuring songs on XYZ show on the WB". And your website says... what? "I could have had music on the WB but I decided not to"? That doesn't read well on the old bio. Regarding my credits, no one has ever asked what I got paid or anything about the deals... the credits are what people look at. I see film and TV credits as currency that I can spend later when those credits lead to bigger and better things. That's the way its worked with me at least. Anyway, congratulations on that potential placement. Having the patience and foresight to ask questions like this before committing to any decision, those are qualities that will serve you well in your music career. HTH,Dave

[billg]

Hi Barber, I think you might want to take out the company names because otherwise this thread may be deleted. I have also signed a song with the company you're talking about & although they haven' placed it yet the contract I signed was the same as yours except for the extra taxes (I'm in the US). Actually, so far in my limited experience I can tell you that $750 for a license fee isn't bad, and a lot of places take the 50% of the publishing anyway. I didn't think there was anything strange going on with the company. I'm with Dave in that I don't turn down anything that says non-exclusive unless I know it's an out & out scam.

[aimusic]

But that's what I thought the W-8BEN Form was for... for us foreigners potentially making money in the US so that we don't get taxed over there.... am I correct... coz I just filled one out recently?

[barber]

Cheers to all replies. I ready you loud and clear. Good to know someone else has signed with them. I just wanted to cover my butt. Hard negotiating stuff in a different time zone and different country.I will have a look at the tax form mentioned by bradn. Cheers all,Miranda x

[aimusic]

Hey Miranda,Yeah check it out, because I've recently sent my tracks to the States and the company requested that I fill in the W-8BEN form for Tax Reasons, so that I don't get taxed there, but am still responsible for my taxes over here - which I think we can both agree are BLOODY REDICULOUS...

[aimusic]

Also good to have someone else on the forum from the South of the World... I'm originally from South Africa....

[matto]

Oct 30, 2008, 4:12am, barber wrote:Hey there gang,I am reasonably new to Taxi, joined end of August/beginning of September, and just registered for this forum yesterday. Very helpful actually. I'm based in London, UK and I'm an Aussie gal. Thrilled to have had two of my songs forwarded on two different submissions over the past two weeks. One very moody slow number Blues Day, and one pretty light hearted swingy fusion number, The Num Num Song. Yup, I said light. Congratulations!Quote:Anyhoo, I also occasionally submit material through Sonicbids and recently one of my songs My Roof Has Got A Hole In It was selected by an LA-based music synch company to pitch for an internationally syndicated TV show. Sounds good eh? But then I received a copious amount of paperwork and then shared it with my lawyer and some bods in "the know" saying i needed way more information about the show etc and that the deal was pretty grim. As most of you will understand, we just want more exposure for our music, but i do not believe in the need to exploit myself or my music for a quick fix.It's important to talk with attorneys and "bods" who are actually in the know about this particular part of the music business...placing independent artists' songs in US tv shows and movies. Many music attorneys even here in the US are rather clueless when it comes to this...Quote:So currently i know that the show is aimed at a youthful demographic, is syndicated in the U.S. and the U.K. on the WB network. The show already has a theme tune, and it is not clear what usage my song would be put to. WB shows (actually it's called CW now) are typically aimed at a young demo so this doesn't tell you much. However the more popular shows on that network are very attractive to young viewers, so much so that major labels often try to get their music on them in order to break their baby bands. So it can be powerful exposure. Your music would most likely be used for some kind of background application (e.g. a character driving down the road listening to the car stereo, and your song might be playing on it).Quote:The deal is a 50/50 split of the licencing fee. At the moment all they can tell me is that the licencing fee will be around $750 or above. So when it is converted into sterling, i see diddly squat! They also say that if the licencing fee is less than $2000 they will also take 50% of the royalties. However, they will not collect the royalties on my behalf. $750 (or above) is a fairly good license fee for a background use on the CW as mentioned above. Sometimes there may be an opportunity for a more prominent use, say a montage scene, and the license fee would likely be higher for that. There is no way the company can know ahead of time what kind of use you might get, or if you get any use at all, so they really can't be more specific. Splitting that license fee 50/50 is fairly standard. So is taking some share of the royalties, up to 50%. It's also normal that they don't collect performance royalties on your behalf. They would probably retitle the song and register the new title with their PRO with themselves as the (co-)publisher, leaving your original title unaffected (make sure you verify this). They would then collect their share of royalties directly from their PRO, and you would collect yours from your own. I'm assuming that's either the PRS or APRA given that you are an Aussie living in the UK. FYI, total performance royalties (writer's + publisher's share) for a "feature placement" on the CW (meaning any placement with vocals that lasts 45s or longer) are usually about $1700-$2000 per airing here in the US. If the episode reruns, you'd get paid again. UK royalties would be on top of that but probably would be only about 10% of the US.Quote:Further, because i am a foreigner, they are also saying they have to deduct a further 30% for tax purposes, despite the fact that i will pay tax here in the UK on all my income. Rubbish. I would see about 50 cents of nothing. I am assured by various bods that this need not be the case, but would ideally like some confirmation.I'm not sure about this as far as licensing fees. I know that US PRO's have to deduct taxes for their foreign members not living in the US as I have a BMI member co-writer who lives abroad. If you collect your royalties via APRA or the PRS, taxes will probably have been deducted by the US PRO that collects here on your behalf. However there are international treaties against double taxation, and you should be able to deduct taxes you paid in the US from your UK tax liability. BMI sends me a summary of all foreign taxes that were deducted from my royalties each year.Quote:So i guess I'm just after a general discussion. If anyone has a heads-up on *COMPANY NAME WITHHELD* I'd be most grateful, and other general experiences of synching companies. I have another tv/film licencing company based in MI potentially interested in about six or so of my songs, so I'd just like to become a bit more educated about how to play this game.I have no experience with this company. I do have plenty of experiece with the film/tv synching and music library field in general, as I write music for these types placements for a living.Placing music on TV shows or in films does three things for you:1- If you are an artist, it gives you exposure to potential buyers, 2- It provides you with credits, which in turn raise your credibility and help you stand out from the thousands of wannabe artists out there who have no credits, and 3- it provides you with *some* income. Yes, it may not seem like much money in the grand scheme of things...and you will certainly not be able to make a living from a few placements. You need a catalog of a few hundred songs to do that. However, in my book, *any* amount of money generated by your music is cause for pride and celebration...and any amount of money is better than no money... So what I would do is study the terms of the agreement carefully and with the help of an attorney who is knowledgable in this particular field. Don't focus on the money so much as making sure you still retain full ownership over your song. Because if you do, what have you got to lose?HTH,matto

[barber]

Thank you sooooooooooooooo much. I'm really not all that concerned by the money side of things. I agree that the exposure is invaluable. It was only when i shared the agreement terms and the communications i had with the relevant company, with a very reputable music lawyer here in London and management bods, they got all up in arms about it being a raw deal. But I am in the boat with you guys, getting a synch is better than no synch. Also, I have just now managed to suss out that there is a tax treaty between the U.S. and the U.K. and it appears if I have perused the articles correctly, that i may be exempt from paying tax in the U.S. given that the earnings will not be over a certain amount. One article deals with royalties which are only taxable in the country in which i receive them....U.K., and there is a separate article in the treaty (16) for entertainers/sportsmen!! Entertainers includes musicians. Appears that i could be taxed in the U.S. if i earned over $20,000!! I'll blow the trumpet as and when, but definitely not now. Hee hee.Gotta dash...will tune in again tomorrow.Again, bundles of thanks.M x

[Casey H]

MirandaJust by coincidence, another person from that other place showed me the contract from that music library. I know nothing about the library itself but the contract (nothing to do with a particular placement) looked very reasonable and at least as good as standard. Any comments I had were very minor. THAT IS A NON-LAWYER OPINION... BIG DISCLAIMER.If you contact me I can share with you the same comments I am giving that other person and explain all the terms. This other person had similar concerns. The contract is 10 pages and scared them, worrying about the possible legal costs of having it reviewed by an attorney. MY NON-LAWYER opinion is this contract is standard, has very fair terms and is non-exclusive so, although a review with a good entertainment attorney is always a good idea, if you really can't afford it there isn't much risk. Again, I don't know anything about the company itself, just the contract.One problem I've had with some music attorneys is sometimes they try way too hard to over-protect you, suggesting a lot of changes which can blow the deal. It's important that you work with someone who understands you are mainly concerned about the major things. Also, as matto mentioned, some are not really familiar with music libraries, non-exclusive licensing with re-title, etc.Please feel free to drop me a PM.I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY AND CANNOT DISPENSE LEGAL ADVICE. Casey