Question about ADDA Conversion - Digi 002 or Steinberg UR22

[piwacquet]

Hi All,

Just wondering if anyone knows the tech side of adda conversion. I have a Digi 002 and a Steinberg UR22, and am trying to find out which one has the better conversion. (and Pre's) Does anyone here have any idea on this. I don't have the money to get another piece of equipment at the moment.

Thanks
Mike

[Len911]

Mike, as far as the a/d d/a conversion itself there are only a few chip makers, and I'd probably only be concerned with really old implementations. In other words, unless you get into the more expensive converters, no difference if you upgraded to lower-to-mid grade equipment. The Steinberg (Yamaha) is the newer of the 2. Yamaha digital mixers in the past were the mid range kinda standard. The Steinberg I'm sure is a major upgrade from those as far as conversion and mic pre's. I would probably lean towards the Steinberg over the digi 002, mainly because it is newer, and for the Yamaha D preamps.

I know you said you didn't have the money to upgrade now, but if in the future you were to upgrade, you could always use either one as an a/d front end to say something like a 2 or 3 slot 500 series chassis, with perhaps a preamp, eq, compressor... I'm just saying, I would use it for that, and with the 500 series you can get the better for less, and just what and how many you need. In other words, I wouldn't upgrade with a lower-mid mic pre, compressor, just because it included a/d converters, when for around the same money or not much more, get a top end mic pre and compressor and use the a/d converters I already owned in the same league of quality or even a tad less. I come from a viewpoint of budget, get the best for less.

[andygabrys]

+1 on what Len911 wrote.

Most people considered the 002 pretty dodgy anyways - that was one of the reasons Black Lion Audio rose to popularity.

[piwacquet]

Thanks for the input Len and Andy. Could you further explain how to use a 500 series rack. Does it have built-in ad/da conversion or is it just a power supply for components? Is it used as an audio interface also or does it work in conjunction with an audio interface? Just am not familiar with the equipment, ya know. I saw some Neve and API 500 series racks but no real description as to how they connect in and function. If I had one and put a 500 series pre in it, would that take place of my UR22 or digi002? And which model would you recommend?

And what do you guys use for your interface? How is the Apollo Twin or Presonus Studio 192 or RME Babyface Pro?

Sorry for all the questions, but I just am ignorant in the matter.

Mike

[Len911]

Mike, it all started with API, you might have of heard of the "lunchbox". They also have a 200 series which I have, but only API makes modules to fit it. The rack is essentially the chassis containing the power supply and in/outs, each slot can hold 1 module, it just slides in and plugs in and you screw the module to the chassis like a rack. It allows you to purchase console quality components for a cheaper price because once you purchase the rack or lunchbox, you aren't buying a power supply and chassis for every module. The other advantage is that you buy only what you want or need, if you only want 1 mic pre instead of 2, you can mix and match. Let's say you only ever needed 1 mic pre and a compressor for recording vocals. You would need a 2 slot rack. The versatility is that you could buy an API pre, a Neve pre, SSL pre... and interchange them. A few modules take up 2 slots, beware of that. A 4 rack might be more practical if your chain was mic pre, eq, compressor?

This is all analog, balanced in/out connectors, does not come with an a/d converter, headphone jack, etc., that is where you would continue using your Steinberg or digi 002 interface. You could purchase the other items, but not necessary. It depends on how many channels you are going to record at once, and I presume if your current interfaces meet your needs for that, they still will.

There are so many possibilities now from when I bought my setup. There wasn't any usb connections for one, it used to be just pc cards.

Which model would I recommend? I have API and an Oram Octasonic and Octamix, and the only other thing I had to compare was an Amek Neve 9098EQ (mic pre and eq). That particular Neve couldn't hold a candle to the API pre imo. Rarely in audio have I found something that I was so satisfied with, I was never tempted to try anything else, and the API gear is one of those rarities. To be fair, the Oram is really good also, I just prefer the API. The press has praised and then crucified Oram, and I've never seen nothing but praise for API. API has mostly if not always been the same design and components and Neve has had numerous models. For me, since I haven't had much experience with anything other than API, I could just tell when I sing through my API chain, it just sounds like what I think it should sound. I've read that it is colored or has punch or for rock and roll, but I have no idea what that means. To me it sounds natural,lol! The Neve I had sounded small in comparison, maybe it was lacking punch?? If I would have had choices at the time, I might not have bought API, because words like colored, punch and rock and roll might have prejudiced me against it in favor of warm and neutral. I should also say that the only way I can evaluate anything is by singing through it, whether it's mics, pres, compressors, eq... Once it's recorded and played back, I honestly can't tell a whole lot of difference, well, amongst the better gear anyway.

For the single, over dubber in a home studio, that isn't recording a whole band at once, just one thing at a time, really just 1 or 2 for stereo channels is all a person needs, so why not have one or two really high quality chains to record? A really good mic, and
a 500 series console quality chain, (along with a descent a/d, d/a, headphone amp). The d/a and headphone amp isn't as critical because that's not what is recorded.

An alternative is a channel strip. The disadvantage is that you are locked in with one mfg. and one chain, unless there are inserts, but when you figure the cost, your probably still better off with the flexibility of the lunchbox 500 series. It just depends on your needs and preferences and if there is something that meets those needs.

[piwacquet]

Thank you Len. I appreciate the time you spent explaining things to me. I'm going to put a little $ back and try to upgrade as soon as I can. I may have more questions when that time comes.

Thanks again
Mike

[andygabrys]

Nice work Len!

So i agree again - you can get great results from a so-so AD convertor if you have a decent preamp - even with a budget MIC. a Shure SM57 through a good preamp can sound pretty sweet right on its own. But an SM57 through the preamps and convertors in the 002 might not be very awe inspiring.

I use a UA 610 tube preamp for DI guitars / basses and all mic stuff. It goes directly into the line level input of my Apogee Duet 2 - so it bypasses the Apgogee mic preamps which are not bad at all.

So if it were me in your position - I would likely use the stein berg interface, and look for a one or two channel preamp. There are various Neve, and Neve clones out there both new and vintage, and API stuff. something for every flavor.

If you want more stuff, sure you can get a 500 series rack (which are available from API, Radial Engineering and others) and mix and match 500 series components.

the other way to go is to get an interface from UA like the Apollo, or the Antelope interfaces which have built in effects and you can either monitor through the effects or capture the sound with the effects on.

I don't have an Apollo, but I have a UAD PCI card in my mac, and the sounds you can get are pretty sweet. Vintage and modern analog gear modeled accurately. Get an Apollo and you can record through several flavors of Neve preamps, UA, etc and various compressors, hit tape on the way etc. and have it all captured in your audio.

Obviously I drank the UAD cool-aid, but its something to consider as an all in one solution - good AD-DA, decent preamps plus their Unison preamp modeling. Look at the UA Twin QUAD. I don't know if the convertors would be that much better than the Steinberg unit, but there are all the other bells and whistles incorporated.

Good luck!

[Len911]

Yw Mike! I just noticed Westlake Pro sells the 500 series, that's where years ago I bought my 200 series and a lunchbox with 2 API eq's. the 200 series didn't have any eq modules at the time still in the design stage. I wouldn't go the 200 now, because you have to buy a power supply+rack, more expensive, there are many options for the 500 series racks.
I thought Westlake had gotten out of that side of the business, apparently not. They're also a sponsor at the road rally I believe.
https://westlakepro.com/500-series/
Vintage King and Sweetwater also sell them, VK many times has used or demos, and I think they have their own brand of racks.

Fwiw, I sold the 500 series Eq's and lunch box. I only use my chain to sing, and I couldn't find an eq setting that sounded any better than just the mic pre and compressor. I do also have a gate/expander I really just started using, it works when the furnace or a/c comes on. I also have 3 compressors. Either I had money to burn at the time,lol, or I thought I might do some reamping or something. Actually I did try that going to cassette and I wasn't impressed with the results. So now I have 2 spares, the original compressor is a little different and I prefer it for my vocal. I don't remember now why I went with the 200 series, it must have been cheaper somehow. I don't see any price advantage now. For example the mic pre is about $200 cheaper, but you don't get the instrument in like you do in the 500 series, it's another module, making the combined modules more money than the 500 mic pre.

[Len911]

Just for fun I went to Vintage King to do a little comparison shopping. Neve 1073. There are various options.

1073 LB=mic pre only=$995 500 series
1073 CV=mic pre+eq=$3,295 either a Neve console or a custom built rack
1073N=mic pre+eq=$2,250 standalone, complete with power supply and chassis
1073LBEQ=$1,295 Eq 500 series
1073LB+1073LBEQ+2264aLB= $3,316.50 500 series mic pre, eq, and compressor

If you bought the standalone it is actually $40 cheaper than buying the 500 series modules, plus you have to buy the rack.
If for some reason you only either wanted the mic pre or the eq, your only option is the 500 series.
What if I wanted a mic pre and a compressor or the whole mic pre, eq, compressor chain? To be fair I didn't look for other options for the compressor.

It may be hard to justify a 500 series system if what you wanted was in a standalone channel strip and you could never see yourself mixing and matching, and you wanted everything in the strip. For me personally, I wouldn't want the eq, I'd rather have a compressor, probably a cheaper one than the $1,395 Neve. The API 527 is $1,040.95. The difference is nearly the price of a rack,lol! Once you get past the price of the rack, it gives you options that many times aren't available, such as a single channel.
I've already said that I wouldn't want an eq, but what about an API mic pre and a Neve 1073LB. I believe the API pre is about $880, or $420 less than the 500 series Neve EQ. Now I have $420 to go for the price of the rack or a compressor. I think I've done enough demonstrating the options with the 500 series.

[piwacquet]

Andy and Len,

Thank you so much for the in depth info. So much to consider and save up for. Thanks to you guys I have a much better understanding of the choices I need to make. You guys ROCK!!!!!

Mike