Question for the orchestral composers

[bigbluebarry]

For those of you who know me, you know that I'm primarily a guitar-driven songwriter. But one of my goals for the upcoming year is to branch out a bit and stretch myself in the area of composing. I guess you could say that I'm a complete newbie in that aspect of music. I hear some of the stuff that "Mr. Dave" Walton and Mazz and hummingbird have done and I get inspired to write like that but I have no clue as to where to start.Quick background... I have no formal training in music or music theory, self-taught in every aspect. I know it's not a requirement to have some music theory training for composing but I know it would be beneficial. I do not know how to play piano but I do have a MIDI keyboard. Also, I have a copy of EWQLSO Silver edition with the PLAY engine.So with that in mind, I have a couple of questions... First question: Especially for those of you who reading this that are familiar with the music that I write, what would you suggest as a good beginning step to getting into this type of writing? Second question: When you're writing an orchestral piece, how do you get started? To possibly make this a bit easier to answer, I'll ask a more specific question but feel free to give a generic or broader answer. If you were going to write something for the following listing, how would you get started, or what would the process be like?UNIQUE, MODERN CLASSICAL/ORCHESTRAL INSTRUMENTALS in the wide range of Philip Glass, Michael Nyman, James Horner, John Cage, Hans Zimmer, Steve Reich, Thomas Newman, etc. are needed by an established Music Licensing company who provides content for major clients including Toyota, AOL, Google, Visa, Xbox, Adidas and more. You can see that the stylistic range is quite broad - you'll want to focus on arrangements that have dynamic build and movement, rather than ONLY static movement. Think in terms of unique and unexpected instrumentation, along with melodic elements that are compelling. A blend of contemporary and classical will be key for this one. Primarily, a unique and current/modern tone will be the most important factor - along with fantastic performances. Feel free to submit a variety of stylistic approaches here - ensemble pieces are recommended over any solo arrangements. Please submit 1-3 original instrumentals online or per CD. All submissions will be screened and critiqued by TAXI and must be received no later than January 5, 2009. Any information that you are willing to share would be greatly appreciated. I know it's going to be a lot of work, especially since I don't have the theory knowledge, but I'm in this for the long haul. Hard work doesn't scare me Thanks,-Big Blue

[davewalton]

Dec 31, 2008, 9:18am, bigbluebarry wrote:For those of you who know me, you know that I'm primarily a guitar-driven songwriter. But one of my goals for the upcoming year is to branch out a bit and stretch myself in the area of composing. I guess you could say that I'm a complete newbie in that aspect of music. I hear some of the stuff that "Mr. Dave" Walton and Mazz and hummingbird have done and I get inspired to write like that but I have no clue as to where to start.Quick background... I have no formal training in music or music theory, self-taught in every aspect. I know it's not a requirement to have some music theory training for composing but I know it would be beneficial. I do not know how to play piano but I do have a MIDI keyboard. Also, I have a copy of EWQLSO Silver edition with the PLAY engine.So with that in mind, I have a couple of questions... First question: Especially for those of you who reading this that are familiar with the music that I write, what would you suggest as a good beginning step to getting into this type of writing? Second question: When you're writing an orchestral piece, how do you get started? To possibly make this a bit easier to answer, I'll ask a more specific question but feel free to give a generic or broader answer. If you were going to write something for the following listing, how would you get started, or what would the process be like?UNIQUE, MODERN CLASSICAL/ORCHESTRAL INSTRUMENTALS in the wide range of Philip Glass, Michael Nyman, James Horner, John Cage, Hans Zimmer, Steve Reich, Thomas Newman, etc. are needed by an established Music Licensing company who provides content for major clients including Toyota, AOL, Google, Visa, Xbox, Adidas and more. You can see that the stylistic range is quite broad - you'll want to focus on arrangements that have dynamic build and movement, rather than ONLY static movement. Think in terms of unique and unexpected instrumentation, along with melodic elements that are compelling. A blend of contemporary and classical will be key for this one. Primarily, a unique and current/modern tone will be the most important factor - along with fantastic performances. Feel free to submit a variety of stylistic approaches here - ensemble pieces are recommended over any solo arrangements. Please submit 1-3 original instrumentals online or per CD. All submissions will be screened and critiqued by TAXI and must be received no later than January 5, 2009. Any information that you are willing to share would be greatly appreciated. I know it's going to be a lot of work, especially since I don't have the theory knowledge, but I'm in this for the long haul. Hard work doesn't scare me Thanks,-Big BlueWell, buying stuff doesn't solve all problems but I think it's nearly impossible to really do this with midi-sounding instrumentation. If you don't have any orchestral samples, that's the first place to start and EWQL (www.soundsonline.com) Silver or Gold is the way to go. Not only do they have all the instruments and instrument sections, it sounds good out of the box or maybe with a little reverb added.For me, rather than tackle an entire 3:00 piece for a listing, I started doing very short but focused pieces. In other words, I wasn't able to sustain a pure orchestral sound for an entire piece but I was able to do it for, say 10 seconds or so, then 20 seconds, then 30 seconds, etc. The other thing I did was to learn immediately how to incorporate video clips into my DAW (Sonar in my case) so that I could actually score to video for my own learning purpose. That really helped me to get a good feel for the emotion of the music.Here's an example of one of the first things I did to "get used" to using various instruments and articulations...http://www.DaveWaltonMusic.com/PrivateA ... ated.movIn general, I tried to let several instruments play the melody (each one taking over where the other left off) and to use articulations like trombone swells, things that give a hint of realism. I tried not to think too much in terms of "chords" but rather a melody that then has complimentary notes and movement underneath.Start small... start short... start with something manageable. This concludes today's "Orchestra 101" lesson. That'll be $50.

[bigbluebarry]

Thanks Dave! I've got a copy of the EWQL Silver edition and some nice verbs so I think I'm set on the software side. I've got Pro Tools LE 7.4 and I know it has video capabilities, I just haven't used that functionality yet. I think I know what I'm going to be doing this weekend Fifty bucks, eh? How about I do a high-octane collab with you to pay that debt? - Big Blue

[davewalton]

Dec 31, 2008, 10:03am, bigbluebarry wrote:Fifty bucks, eh? How about I do a high-octane collab with you to pay that debt? - Big BlueOK! Just for reference... the previous short video was done with Gold and Stormdrum. This is one of the first pieces I did with Silver...www.DaveWaltonMusic.com/PrivateArea/Cli ... heSea.movI didn't know anything about using it at that time really. Just threw on some reverb and opened a few strings, horns and an english horn (and a cymbal swooshie ). Of course now Silver has a LOT more articulations so one can be pretty ambitious with it. I still use it for the choirs and extras. An amazing package for just a few hundred bucks.

[elser]

Those clips look great Dave. When you imported the clips to your DAW did they have audio attached? If so how did you dump the audio?

[davewalton]

Dec 31, 2008, 3:11pm, fretnoise wrote:Those clips look great Dave. When you imported the clips to your DAW did they have audio attached? If so how did you dump the audio?The animation clip had no sound and the marching clip had sound but I just muted it. As "practice" there's lots of Hollywood films where there's long scenes with no music. "The Patriot" has a fairly sparse score (even though it was John Williams doing the music)... lots of good scenes to score to (where you get the dialog, sounds effects, etc). If I remember right, Cast Away had no music during the whole segment of the film where Tom Hanks was on the island. Anything for inspiration... even a still picture from a calendar will do the trick.

[elser]

Dec 31, 2008, 3:18pm, davewalton wrote:Dec 31, 2008, 3:11pm, fretnoise wrote:Those clips look great Dave. When you imported the clips to your DAW did they have audio attached? If so how did you dump the audio?The animation clip had no sound and the marching clip had sound but I just muted it. As "practice" there's lots of Hollywood films where there's long scenes with no music. "The Patriot" has a fairly sparse score (even though it was John Williams doing the music)... lots of good scenes to score to (where you get the dialog, sounds effects, etc). If I remember right, Cast Away had no music during the whole segment of the film where Tom Hanks was on the island. Anything for inspiration... even a still picture from a calendar will do the trick. Thanks! Your invaluable.....or is that, your valuable? Hmmm....

[jazzstan]

Dave ... awesome (and awesomely helpful) as always.Big Blue ... from a compositional standpoint, I'd start by writing just two moving lines (and NOT think about chords - tough for us guitar players!!) -- just as an exercise. Dave's suggestion of just chewing off little bites at first makes a lot of sense. Btw, I'm just getting started with the orchestral stuff, too (EWQLSO). Bela Bartok was the inspiration for several generation of film composers, you might want to check out his orchestral stuff.

[suzdoyle]

Hey Big Blue;Another option is to consider using a MIDI guitar; that way you can create orchestrations using the instrument with which you're most comfortable.And I'd listen to examples of good orchestrations -- your Taxi pals Dave, Mazz and Lydia are some of the best, IMHO -- and listen for how their songs are put together.Then there are always books on the subject. One of my favorites is "Arranged by Nelson Riddle":http://www.amazon.com/Arranged-Nelson-R ... 542Writing just 2 line parts is a good exercise, although in my brain I'm always thinking chords. Even a single melody line implies chords by how often the notes land in important spots on notes of the chords.Some of the best advice offered re: orchestrating is not to make orchestrations too "thick" -- to let there be breathing space.Good luck and let us hear how things are going for you!Best regards,Suz

[bigbluebarry]

Dave... Thanks for all of your insight, and videos! Very helpful Stan... I'm not familiar with Bartok, definitely have to check him out. Best wishes to you on your journey too!Suz... thanks for the all the great info! The MIDI guitar is something I'm definitely gonna be looking into. So... the other night I was trying to come up with something for an "a la Coldplay" listing. So I put down the guitar and tried to come up with something on piano, which is not my forte. After coming up with a couple of different ideas that were ok, I ended up scratching that idea. And then once I decided to quit trying to force the issue, something else started coming out. Taking Dave's advice of starting slow, I used my limited piano skills (THANK YOU QUANTIZE) and wrote a very short piece that's mostly piano but does have a little bit of strings at the end. Here's the link:Playing In The Snow - http://www.taximusic.com/song.php?song_ ... m=trueIt's a rough mix so keep that in mind but any feedback on the piece or any suggestions for types of listings that this would work for would be greatly appreciated.Thanks!- Big Blue