Recording Sax and Trumpet Monday...Need Help

[Piewackit1]

I'm recording some Sax and Trumpet for the 1st time this Monday night. Which mic would you recommend out of the ones I own?

AKG 414
SM57
AKG C1000S
or
MD421

I would appreciate any input.
Thanks.
Jeff

[Paulie]

That's a pretty open question, you have lots of options. Do you have the ability to record two mics at once? If so, I'd go with the Sennheiser about 8" in front of the bell and the AKG C1000 on the player's left hand side in front of the player about shoulder high pointing at the left hand. I record myself with an SM75 in front me, parallel with the floor, aimed between my hands. Try different distances and see what you like.

For trumpet I'd go with the Sennheiser directly in front of the horn about a foot away. Adjust as needed.

Have fun!

[mojobone]

I'd go with the MD421 in either direction; condensers can be pretty spitty on brass of any kind. The C1000S is a top choice for a mono acoustic dreadnought, but literally the last thing I'd use on horns. (it'll work, but so will you) ElectroVoice RE20, Shure SM7B or pretty much anything you'd put on a kick drum (Audix D6, AKG D-112, etc) should work well here, too. Most are a little scooped in the low mids, which helps prevent buildup, when you're overdubbing multiple takes from a single horn. (also great for getting in close on bowed strings, but for brass, you'll generally want some distance)

What you won't need is a super-sensitive preamp; you might even want to pad down your mic or preamp, depending. Mind the rule of thirds; low ceilings/reflective floors can end up giving you a bunch of phasey crap, so if you have a room with a higher ceiling than average, you might want to start there, and a reflection filter behind the mic is a very good idea; they make a model specifically for recording horns, and for a very good reason, but of course, you can use your own baffles or gobos, if you got'em.

For sax, the mic distance can be critical; you'd assume incorrectly that you point the mic at the bell, but the sound comes from the lowest stopped tone hole, so point the mic at the player's third finger, left hand, then pull back until you only hear the barest hint of key click and chuff from the pads opening and closing. I used to try to gate that out, but now I leave some so folks know it's not a sample, LOL

The smaller reeds, alto and soprano saxes, I treat more like the woodwinds they are; they don't really punch along with the low brass, and I seldom need to reduce raspiness, so SDCs can actually help bring out some grain, if things are sounding too smooth. I should probably add that miking a horn section is an entirely different beast.

[Paulie]

Listen to Mojo... he knows his hardware.

[VanderBoegh]

I use an AKG Perception 100 when I record my trumpet parts. I place it about 2-3 feet away from the bell, and just blast away. Mojo is right, you'll probably need to pad the preamp to knock down the gain, as trumpet will send you into the red super quick. Depending on the trumpet part, you could move the mic closer than 2-3 feet (for soft playing), or if your horn player is a high-note blaster, then you might need to think about 4 feet or so. Just watch the levels and listen back to the parts to see what placement sounds best.

Since you have all those mics, you could also place one on the far side of the room to capture the distance, or even place one in another room entirely to mix in for some added ambience / natural reverb sound.

Good luck and have fun!

~~Matt

[TimWalter]

How about ribbon mics on either or both?

After my month long class at Cre8 (westlake) , I felt the need to upgrade my guitar amp mic (since it is my main instrument and I want the best sound). I splurged and bought a Royer R121, which I have seen name called on many many top guitar recordings. It is also the mic of choice (combined with an SM57) at Westlake.

My sax instructor suggests using a ribbon on sax, so I have tried recording my sax with the Royer, and like the sound. My instructor at Cre8/Westlake (a grammy nominated engineer/producer, Doug Fenske) said he would use a ribbon like the royer on trumpet, etc, but not on sax (I need to dig out what he recommended for sax, its in my notes.. it was either a tube mic as used on vocals or a LDC mic... will have to check and revert... I have so many notes I still need to get organized).

Im curious on what you pro horn players (like Paulie and Matt) think about a ribbon mic for trumpet, and maybe for sax.

Tim

[Casey H]

Listen to Mojo... he knows his hardware.

[andygabrys]

I'd go with the MD421 in either direction; condensers can be pretty spitty on brass of any kind. The C1000S is a top choice for a mono acoustic dreadnought, but literally the last thing I'd use on horns. (it'll work, but so will you) ElectroVoice RE20, Shure SM7B or pretty much anything you'd put on a kick drum (Audix D6, AKG D-112, etc) should work well here, too. Most are a little scooped in the low mids, which helps prevent buildup, when you're overdubbing multiple takes from a single horn. (also great for getting in close on bowed strings, but for brass, you'll generally want some distance)

What you won't need is a super-sensitive preamp; you might even want to pad down your mic or preamp, depending. Mind the rule of thirds; low ceilings/reflective floors can end up giving you a bunch of phasey crap, so if you have a room with a higher ceiling than average, you might want to start there, and a reflection filter behind the mic is a very good idea; they make a model specifically for recording horns, and for a very good reason, but of course, you can use your own baffles or gobos, if you got'em.

For sax, the mic distance can be critical; you'd assume incorrectly that you point the mic at the bell, but the sound comes from the lowest stopped tone hole, so point the mic at the player's third finger, left hand, then pull back until you only hear the barest hint of key click and chuff from the pads opening and closing. I used to try to gate that out, but now I leave some so folks know it's not a sample, LOL

The smaller reeds, alto and soprano saxes, I treat more like the woodwinds they are; they don't really punch along with the low brass, and I seldom need to reduce raspiness, so SDCs can actually help bring out some grain, if things are sounding too smooth. I should probably add that miking a horn section is an entirely different beast.

Boom! there it is!

The studio I did some interning at in NYC taught me a couple things about live horns - on Sax the engineer favored his vintage Telefunkin badged U47 - It sort of brought out the grain a little.

On the recording that I posted in another thread (Jeff) when I recorded that horn section I did it in my living room which is a big box with 13+' ceilings. I had one mic relatively close on the Trumpet, Sax, and Trombone (on which I used an AKG D112) and then a "room" mic which was placed about 5' in front of the section with a gobo behind it so it wouldn't pickup any slap off the wall. It all sort of worked. I am sure if I had the chance to do it a few times a week I would get much more technique for getting it to sound great.

I have always dug this horn sound https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiv1AaL ... tml5=False - a real small room kind of thing.

[TimWalter]

[
The studio I did some interning at in NYC taught me a couple things about live horns - on Sax the engineer favored his vintage Telefunkin badged U47 - It sort of brought out the grain a little.

.

That's what my instructor advised for sax.. a vintage tube mic.. in his case he said he'd start with a Neumann U67, if I remember correctly. Since I dont have a $20000 vintage mic on hand (although they could be rented for a special session or a session that has the budget), I'll use my Mojave tube mic and see how that compares to the Royer... maybe both and mix them to taste.

Tim

[mojobone]

Yeah, a vintage U-67 would be my first choice on a tenor or bari, but the OP didn't mention having any, so...yeah. As far as ribbon mics for the same situation, I think I'd go with a Cascade Fathead II ahead of the Royer, which has a lot more extension and output than vintage-type ribbons; it's brighter, but not as bright as a condenser, and if money were no object, a big ol' honkin RCA would be an even better choice, but... they're all just flavors. I don't think I've ever had an ideal situation in any studio, including mine, so I just kinda make do with what's on hand. The performance is the most important thing, in any case.