Recording Vocals

[billybob]

Hey all you techno engineering types, I need some help!

I am fairly new at this digital recording thing. I am using Pro Tools 8LE with an Mbox Mini. I am using an AKG C214, 414's little brother, although I have the same problem with my Sterling Audio ST55.
The problem is that I am having a really hard time getting a good volume level when listening back after recording a vocal track, does this even make sense? I am thinking it must be that the record level is too low. I have tried using my ART Pro Channel pre amp as well as going straight into the Mbox, still very little volume when listening back; I have to crank the playback volume to almost overdrive so I can hear it. I can use a compressor to help increase the volume but there goes the clean sound I am after.
I have been setting the record level between -10 to -15db so as to give myself some headroom for mixing.
I have tried activating/deactivating the 20db pad on the C214 but still no luck. I don't seem to have the same problem when recording acoustic guitar (Martin M18).

Help!!!

Any tips of advice would be greatly appreciated.

I'll be seeing some of you at the Road Rally, my first.

Billybob

[t4mh]

Try bringing that record level up so the peaks are no more than -4db. Shoot for -6db for most of your track. You have to have a signal recorded that is "usable" and sounds good. Most things you could do to bring -15db up to -4 could cause lots of noise in the track IMO.

Try to keep your fader between 70 and 80% as this is your nudge room for the mix. Use the input gain to get your signal level where you want it but listen "close close" for noise and back it down if you have to. Once recorded, check the graduations on the fader. A change of 3db louder is TWICE as loud and should bring you right up close to but not over 0db for the mix. If the whole thing is -6db then you'll have to push the fader a little further to get there but the fader should still be in the less than 80% range.

This is just general advice from the analog recording world. In general I've found it applies very well to the digital world although I have found I can push my faders a lot farther in my DAW than I could on a board and get away with it.

HTH & Good Luck!
Keith

[billybob]

Hey Keith,

Thanks so much for the info, I will give it a try ASAP.

Billy

[rnrmachine]

Hey Billy,

Not only do I 100% agree with what Keith said, but in either world, analog or digital, you want to record as hot as possible, while keeping it clean of course. The most important thing to remember in digital is... the louder you record something the more bits that get used to "copy" that audio thus equating to a higher quality recording. So as long as you record powerful and clean no matter how much you suck at mixing now, in the future as you get better you can go back to those recordings and improve them up to BQ (broadcast quality) standards.

You can ALWAYS turn it down in the mix thus lowering the noise floor and that will = even higher quality because you lowered the noise floor... ANYTIME you turn something up, AFTER recording especially, you are raising the noise floor. A big NO NO unless you HAVE to. Turning something up via preamps will not raise the noise floor prior to recording like after recording will. If your gear records at 96db db for instance and your recording a quiet signal that noise floor is 105db because you have it quiet... you still recorded at only 96db, then turning that up in the mix by 10db will raise the noise floor to 86db. You now no longer have CD quality but had you recorded louder........ I think you are following me by now... even if I didn't explain it near as technically as I could have.

Still, recording at -15 shouldn't be THAT quiet imho. Although 10db is a lot when talking how loud something sounds it's not quiet enough to warrant the boosts you are describing. IF doing what Keith said only makes a minor improvement then check your mic cable and be sure it isn't faulty. Make sure the phantom power is "on" powering the mics.

Let us know how it works out, I would like to make sure you are recording properly... after all if I beat you out on a listing then I want it to be because they wanted my music, not because your recording sucked...

Rob

[billybob]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the great info! I will be recording again early next week, I will let you guys know how it works out.

Bill

[mojobone]

You use headphones when tracking vocals, yes? Try turning the headphones down and the mic preamp up when you sing, and maybe stand a little closer to the mic. Unless your singing dynamics vary widely, you can get away with a good deal less than 15dB of headroom, but it can be tricky to work out the recipe for your room, your vocal style, and your voice. I'm with Keith, on this one; ANY time you increase gain in an analog system, you introduce more noise, but if you're not recording enough signal to mix with, that's a bigger problem than the noise.

In most digital home recordings, the biggest sources of noise are usually ambient room tone, computer fan noise, or the fridge in the next room, or even the semi changing gears on the hill two miles away, cuz most digital audio interfaces have only one analog knob between the input and and the digital converter, which is very different from the multiple gain stages in a typical analog mixer, where mismatched signal levels can sound like a roaring bonfire. A digital gain change (post analog to digital conversion) doesn't add noise to your recording, but it does turn up any noise that's already in there, along with your signal. (but noise isn't always a bad thing; jes' make sure it's a joyful noise, heh)

[billybob]

Hi Mojo,

Thanks for the help, I now have lots of info to experiment with! I appreciate all of the insight you guys have offered.

I will be applying all of this newfound knowledge soon.

Thanks again,

Bill

[chris carter]

There is some misinformation in this thread. Your recording levels are good assuming you are tracking at 24bits. You should be shooting for -12 to -18dBFS while tracking. It is a common error to tracking really loud and push up into the -6dBFS and higher range. I mix tons of records and I've seen every possible way people can track vocals (or any other instrument) and hot levels are one of my pet peives. You will get a better sound recording where you already were tracking, as opposed to the hotter levels some have recommended. The reasons are beyond the scope of this post, but suffice to say, do not track hotter than you already are.

If you are having a problem hearing yourself on playback, a few quesitons come to mind:
1) Are you having a hard time hearing yourself RELATIVE to the music? If so, then turn the music down. Or...
2) Are you having a hard time hearing EVERYTHING (vocals and music)? If so, then the problem is your monitoring chain - in this case the headphone preamp and your headphones. I have never used an Mbox, so I don't know what the headphone amps are like on them, but it is common to have cheaper built-in headphone amps start to crap out when you crank them. They get thin, brittle, distort easily. As well, cheap headphones often can't handle the volume level that some folks prefer during tracking. Additionally, the impedence of the headphones can affect the volume they put out - suffice to say that two different sets of headphones can yield two different volumes. So what to do? Try out some different headphones first and see if you can find a louder pair you like (borrow from friends is a cheap way to experiment). The second thing you can do is buy a powered headphone amp so that you can get more/better gain going to your headphones.

But recording hotter signals is NOT the answer!!!!!!!!!... unless you are tracking at 16bits in which case you do have to record a little hotter, but that still wouldn't be the answer to your problem.

[billybob]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for taking the time to comment. I appreciate your input! The reason I was tracking at -10/-15db was that I read an article by one of the industries top engineers stating his preference for tracking at those levels. I'm pretty lame when it comes to the technical aspects of recording, I just know what sounds good to me. I think part of my problem might be my lack of experience using a mic pre. I'll just keep experimenting. gleaning what I can from you guys.

I'm pretty much open to trying anything to be able to make a good broadcast quality recording.

Feel free to offer any advice/tips that you have

Thanks again,

Billy

[rnrmachine]

Hey Chris and Billy,

I just wanted to mention that recording hotter does use more bits which = better sound because the more of the available bits used to copy the audio the better. That is not misinformation, it is fact. I am not saying that one should cram the track when recording and we all know why one shouldn't do that, even Billy apparently knows this since he was keeping his levels low .

Billy, if you are peaking at -15 without compression, on the track that the audio is being recorded to, that is too low of a recorded track to achieve the best recorded quality possible on digital. You didn't say anything about using compression and that is why I mentioned... I am sure Kieth too but I can't speak for him ...mentioned about recording hotter then that. IF you are compressing prior to recording then a lower peak would be fine. Also, I am talking light compression for a vocal track, mainly depending on the audio source would determine how much, but since you mentioned vocals we'll stick with light compression. A reduction of 6db gain, peak, is very light but will increase the apparent quality a lot. In the years that I have been studying and practicing, it is much more common to comp vocals to 12db max reduction. Chris Lord-Alge would probably argue that 12db isn't enough most of the time. LOL

EDIT: I am not saying you NEED to compress when recording and certainly I would never tell someone to over compress when recording, many people do not compress vocals when recording, including myself, some of the time but that is only on softer vocals, IF I am yelling I am compressing. I will not claim that I am some guru But I have seen and read, time and time again, how pro engineers will comp a signal before recording if for no other reason then to tame and protect from peaks as well as get a more solid recorded signal. I have mixed a bunch too, Live engineer for many years and now in my home studio for many years. And plenty of REAL study, not just f++kin' around with stuff. In the old days recording to tape it was paramount to leave headroom on individual tracks. Digital is a bit different (pun intended hehe) in the fact that using more bits is better... it's not opinion either.. it is fact.

People try to talk dynamics.. they say you NEED dynamics etc... but in reality the appearance of dynamics is what is paramount. Especially if you want your music on radio and to a lesser degree TV where true dynamics is the devil and just the appearance of being dynamic is paramount. We all know that Film is dynamic as hell, someone whispers and you find yourself asking the person next to you, wth did he just say? and they reply, no clue.. then you get BLASTED by a Lear Jet of SPL in the next scene. HAHA We could mix 3 different versions and submit all 3 but does anyone really think that would make a difference on forwards and deals? Imho I don't.

So, imho, when recording in our humble little home studios, the quality of the recording should be paramount and fake dynamics by the talent of composing, mixing, etc... less is more is only good rule when you are doing too much. Keep that in mind. HAHA

Rob