Return on Horrifying Rock Instrumentals - Opinions?

[RogerG]

Hi all,

I thought I had it with my track "The Unlucky Ones" but I got back for music. Taxi also put in a comment (which was nice of them, they didn't have to say anything) of "This needs to be more forward thinking." I listened to some forwards (pun not intended and I don't think that's what Taxi meant) and originally thought I had just gone too "metal", but other forwards are/were quite metal.

So any ideas what Taxi didn't like about this particular one?

The track is called "The Unlucky Ones" and can be found here:

http://www.taxi.com/rogergilpin

Thanks for all comments/suggestions as always. - Roger

P.S. My wife said too 80's. Did she nail it? If she did, how can I make it more current?

[guitaroboe]

Roger,
hey man, I just listened to your track. It was nicely played and well produced.
I will probably agree with your wife though!!!
Most of the referenced bands in the listing tune their axes to super low tunings
and their chord progressions, nowadays, follow quite different patterns than
what we're used to. Believe me, I had to listen very hard to decipher and nail that
stuff!
your track can work in many other listings so NEVER give up on it!
cheers
Adonis

[rnrmachine]

Hey Roger,

First thing I wanna say is... I listened to your other music and you're a really good musician, no doubt about it, imho. "Romanza" is soo awesome I wanna sing over it... do like a Judas Priest - "Before the Dawn" or a Queensryche type thing to it. I already know the vocal line/melody I would use haha. So please take what I am saying as constructive criticism. Meant in a good way, trying to be helpful and NOT hurtful.

I am listening to your track now. For metal... imho, there is too much FX on the drums, they need to be a bit dryer. The bass gtr is almost non existent. Most of the time I can't hear it to the point I am not sure if it's even there. The reason drums are so dry in a lot of metal is to make room for the bass guitar... and it's usually set to the bottom of the rhythm guitars. That's a basic standard BUT I know it's often broken... just a rule to go by unless something changes it, for whatever reason.

There's not enough low end GRUNT and pumping in the mix as well. No parts are unified where the bass, drums and guitar hit at the same time. There's no "chugs" giving me the fake stop start "chunk chunk junka junka" feeling. (for lack of a better way of saying it)

I know some of my parts in my songs are a tad bit sloppy especially in Apoc Game, BUT that is intentional and perhaps I went a bit too far, but I did it for realism. I wasn't too confident they would forward any of them, but Apoc Game was the one I was worried about the most. There are plenty of tight parts though, which seem tighter due to the looseness of the other parts.

Also, it does seem that the tones of things are a tiny bit off their sweet spots... although I think ya did a good job, it's just not quite good enough perhaps.... /shrug. If ya backed off the main guitar riff a smidge, dried the drums up a bit, bring in a driving bass and take the time to get the drums to hit with SOME key moments on the guitars I think ya might have gotten a forward for this... although that opening riff is a bit alt 90s still. So maybe not even then. I am often perplexed why something wasn't forwarded, but honestly not so much here.

I can see why your wife said 80s over all, but the opening riff is a bit alt 90s to me and not metal, but more hard rock alternative, to me anyway. The way you can make it more current is what I mentioned previously. Also, ya might wanna scoop the gtr a tiny bit... OR make a transition like I did on Brutality that harkens back to true metal.

Lastly, and maybe as important as the drums being too effected and not enough bass gtr is, it didn't seem like ya did much work on this. It seems more like a clip than a song/instrumental. It's not a full song with changes, transitions, whatever... It's short, the same basic riff throughout. Although IF this was more like I mentioned before perhaps they would have sent it through anyway. It could still be used for a 10-20 second moment in the film... I would imagine... IF the other things I mentioned were taken care of.

I just went to preview my post and saw Adonis replied... he seems to like it as is so other than what he said is wrong, obviously. SO take what I said for what it is... one persons opinion.

Take care and good luck in the future!!!

John

[RogerG]

Hi Guys,

Adonis, thank you very much for the listen, the feedback, and encouragement. I'm wondering about taking a similar route to your all MIDI track. Even though I play guitar, using samples/MIDI might make me think in an alternate way to what I'm accustomed to/capable of. To take me out of my comfort zone so to speak. I don't know. Just musing on how I might expand my horizons a little bit...

John, thank you very much for the detailed post and I'm somewhat thick skinned (and I have a very blunt, honest wife ) so don't worry about it. I post/ask/look at forwards/etc so I can learn for next time instead of getting all in a tizzy about it (though I'll admit it's frustrating when nobody posts their forwards). And I do appreciate and really do like to hear other people's takes on my music as what I thought I was doing/putting across isn't always the case. Not by a long shot sometimes...

there is too much FX on the drums, they need to be a bit dryer.

I wondered about the drums. They're actually doubled. One set is a dry metal one, the other is more classic rock. I usually do that because I usually want the more classic rock sound with the metal set's "punch" rounding it out and adding the power. But I probably should have re-thought that in this case.

The reason drums are so dry in a lot of metal is to make room for the bass guitar... and it's usually set to the bottom of the rhythm guitars.

I actually did not know that about metal drums and metal bass, so thank you once again. I did have someone before tell me the bass wasn't there enough and I'm not quite sure why I didn't turn it up at that point (maybe I sub-conciously didn't like the actual sound or something? I don't know exactly).

There's no "chugs" giving me the fake stop start "chunk chunk junka junka" feeling.

I'm not quite sure what you mean with the chunka etc? Is there a place in your tracks where you're specifically doing that? I'm thinking of chugging like Metallica does after the chorus in "Seek and Destroy" but I believe you're talking about something different?. Just trying to learn as I said before.

I can see why your wife said 80s over all, but the opening riff is a bit alt 90s to me and not metal, but more hard rock alternative, to me anyway.

I do understand. This has more of an alternative tonality/feel than metal now that I'm looking at it a little more objectively. It's kind of a weird combo actually...

it didn't seem like ya did much work on this.

I'm not denying that. This was written with the deadline looming and I also did figure it wouldn't be playing for more than a minute (that's an eternity in a movie or TV show). But now I'd like to go back and fix it up to make it more current and complete if I can.

Thanks again for the help! It is appreciated. - Roger

P.S. John, neat idea with Romanza and thank you for the compliments but unfortunately I didn't write this. The composer is unknown and this piece has been around for a long time. It also goes under names like Spanish Ballad, Spanish Romance, etc. Google or Youtube it and I guarantee you'll find plenty of variations/performances. Classical guitar is one of my strengths and I'm sure you know there's a significant link between classical music and metal. Randy Rhoads pretty much got me interested in playing guitar in the first place and I still wish I could play like that!

[tordenspyd]

There are a lot of interesting and useful comments here. My comment may not be.
The screeners comment made sense to me without having to do with a particular period of metal music (nor archaeological chronology .
On the first hearing early on I felt it had a forward moving momentum potential that was not fulfilled. To me it's a timing issue. The guitars were propelling it very nicely, but the drums stopped it - at certain spots -early on. So if this was for a particular intended use where the forward momentum should always be present ( I have not seen the listing, its a D listing not?) I can see that as a reason for return. That does not tell there is anything wrong with the music taken isolated. I think it is awesome.

[rnrmachine]

Hey Roger,

Just got done reading your post and I am stoked about everything ya said because I KNOW you will do well!! It's only a few things you need to keep in mind and you will nail this genre.

The Metallica thing... no, not really like after the chorus. A better example would be the opening to "The Four Horsemen" .. then at 0:58 .. sing this in your head along with the guitar riff... chunka chunka junka junka chunka chunka junka junka... hahaha.. THAT's what I mean. Then at 2:04 the next part is a cool rhythm guitar solo jam that breaks into an awesome bang your head section starting at 2:13. Notice the dynamic feel that is created from dropping everything out and then coming back in. Less IS often more... not always, but often enough that the saying carries plenty of weight to it.

Now that is a bit OLD for this listing BUT the tricks are still basically the same.. just done in different ways with newer sounds, tones, mixes, tunings, etc...

Let me point you to Slipknot - Duality at 0:32 into the song.. it's NOT a chug like I meant really, but it's a stop start. Well defined chunk chunk sort of stuff. Then at 0:55... under the verse... that is one cool riff. The sly sounding vocal is cool too and simple as heck.

Now, I know they weren't listed but I feel like I NEED to point you to System of a Down - "Aerials" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-iepu3EtyE&ob=av3e This song is AWESOME and shows a modern metal sound that is almost a POP Metal if there is such a thing. Shows it extremely well imho. Drop C tuning... it's awesome!! This is in reflection to a sonic quality to aim for, but it's almost impossible to get in our home studios... but why not aim for it anyway is my opinion haha.

Guitar, you need to put your guitar into a drop D at least. Drop C sharp or even drop C. Aerials is in drop C. In these low tunings you will find that the edge of the guitar is no longer around 3k but more like 1-2k.

Bass, comp or limit the bass fairly heavy BUT use a high pass on the sidechain input, if ya have a comp that has one, so the low end of the bass can pass through and barely comp it. Then try with a second comp.. preferably a limiter to keep the lows in check. This will give a snapping bass but allow the lows to keep the mix solid. (I recently started doing that and I am liking the results) Bass guitar USED to be the red headed step child in my studio too. Now, there are plenty of mixes where the bass guitar is really buried in the mix and that is fine, BUT it's still audible when ya try to listen for it. OR the bass is blurred with the bottom of the guitars creating one big unified sound.

Drums, keep em as dry as need be BUT no need to keep them ugly dry unless you have the guitars and bass extremely dominant. Balance as best ya can.

Now.. everything I am saying about your mix IS me being VERY nit picky. Just trying to help you produce a better stereo master if I can. Like I said, what ya did is quite good, I can tell you have talent. Honestly... the worst thing about your song, imho, is the obvious lack of effort to put out an actual song. And I am saying that as a die hard metal fan. I do despise Slayer, Pantera, etc... though. I can't stand their persona to the point I won't even listen. I use to LOVE Metal Church though. Mainly for the music... Gods of Wrath got me into them.

Take care Roger and I look forward to discussing many aspects of music in the future!!!

John

OH, and if you find a better way of doing things... feel free to pass it along to me too LOL. I will always happily share any info I have learned because... IF you and I are up for the same spot... I would prefer to lose because they preferred your song... Just so long as one of us Taxi members gets the deal... I'm good with that. Eventually I will have the song they want, it's only a matter of time and effort.

[RogerG]

Hi Tordenspyd,

Thank you very much for the comments and the kind words. Here is the listing for your reference and if you want to have a listen to the a la's:

HORRIFYING ROCK INSTRUMENTALS a la Slipknot, Five Finger Death Punch, Mushroomhead, Otep, etc. needed by the Music Supervisor for placement in a new Horror Feature Film starring many prominent members of Metal/Rock bands. He's looking for instrumentals that have a lot of ENERGY and SUPER-STRONG melodic themes that are MEMORABLE and UNIQUE. Production must be fresh and interesting, but NOT too overwhelming. HE SAID: "I need STRONG performances with tons of ATTITUDE. Please don't send tracks that are effects-laden and hard to put to picture." THINK: Chunky guitar riffs, driving bass lines (Roger's note - DOH!), and heavy hitting drums that can provide the perfect restless tension to a Horror flick! NO VOCALS, INSTRUMENTALS ONLY! Broadcast quality is needed (excellent home recordings are fine.) You must own or control 100% of your composition and master recording. Please submit one to three instrumentals online or per CD, include lyrics (if applicable). All submissions will be screened on a YES/NO BASIS ONLY - NO CRITIQUES FROM TAXI - and must be received no later than NOON (PST) on Monday, February 6, 2012. TAXI#D120206IN

It's always interesting to hear differing opinions. If music was like math (only one correct answer) it wouldn't be nearly as much fun now would it? - Roger

[RogerG]

Hi John,

Ok, listened to your examples and understand now. Thank you. Of course the old crank the tube amp to 11 (or possibly several amps ) is probably what's going on in the "System of a Down" song. I'm itching to try a drop C tuning now. I think Iommi in Black Sabbath started that whole thing didn't he? His was for personal reasons (so he could bend the strings easier with his injured hand), but it ended up giving them their signature heavy sound. Funny how fate works sometimes...

I've gotten better with the drums (sort of) but bass is still a thorn in my side at this point. I will try your suggestions for that also. I'm very much still learning to engineer on top of everything else which should be pretty obvious from other posts I've had up here. I'm stubborn as a mule when it comes to certain things but not when it comes to music. I always try to keep an open mind and open ears. I don't quite "get" Dubstep yet though. Still trying with that one...

Funny that you mentioned "System of a Down". I do like them. I pretty much destroyed my Metallica "Kill 'Em All" tape (I really should replace that one, it's worth whatever it may cost). I do tend into the more pop stuff a little bit though. Linkin Park for one example. Rob Zombie is another one. I've been watching and love the Sam Dunn Metal Evolution documentaries. Do I agree or understand everything he does in the shows? Of course not, but there's always going to be gray areas. That's just the nature of metal and it's always evolving.

Looking forward to it too and I'll certainly pass whatever I can along. Talk to you later. - Roger