Seeking advice regarding the sounds/production in a backing track before adding top line vocal

[BradGray]

Hey ML,

What I keep hearing is a real imbalance with the EQ of the sound. It's very mid heavy, and the highs are really rolled off. Paired up with reverb (which tends to do the same), it turns it very AM radio sounding. I was trying to submit a quick picture here of the sound curve, but I'm not sure exactly how.

To describe what's happening:
Low End (0-225Hz) - Rolled off at 100Hz
Low Mid (225Hz-2K) - Peaking at ~500Hz, then a steep rolloff of frequency, after 500Hz.
High Mid (2k-8K) - Steeper rolloff around ~3K. By the time it hits 8K, it is completely removed
High - (8k and beyond) - Frequencies are non-existent

The tricky part here is that were assuming this is all the instrumentation, as other instruments may/can begin to fill those missing frequency voids. However, if the piano is the primary instrument, it's really "nasally" sounding as the lows and highs have been rolled off hard, leaving the Low-Mids accentuated. I would check to see if you've accidently put eq's or anything in the signal chain that's having this affect on your virtual instruments. I would also suggest layering and seeing what you can do with the other backing strings, as they sound synthy - but it just depends on the sound you're going for. But overall, your making the mix very mid-heavy, and removing the "air" and top end information.

Overall, using midi to layer in sounds to "fill them up" is super-easy and goes a long way. Recently I was playing with a track of my own where the piano was "okay" but seemed to be lacking warmth. Copy/paste the mid info, add in a 70s electric piano and mix underneath the main part. Warmth without changing the main piano sound. =)

P.S. Also EQ your reverb.

Good luck!
Brad

[MJLeeman]

Hey ML,

What I keep hearing is a real imbalance with the EQ of the sound. It's very mid heavy, and the highs are really rolled off. Paired up with reverb (which tends to do the same), it turns it very AM radio sounding. I was trying to submit a quick picture here of the sound curve, but I'm not sure exactly how.

To describe what's happening:
Low End (0-225Hz) - Rolled off at 100Hz
Low Mid (225Hz-2K) - Peaking at ~500Hz, then a steep rolloff of frequency, after 500Hz.
High Mid (2k-8K) - Steeper rolloff around ~3K. By the time it hits 8K, it is completely removed
High - (8k and beyond) - Frequencies are non-existent

The tricky part here is that were assuming this is all the instrumentation, as other instruments may/can begin to fill those missing frequency voids. However, if the piano is the primary instrument, it's really "nasally" sounding as the lows and highs have been rolled off hard, leaving the Low-Mids accentuated. I would check to see if you've accidently put eq's or anything in the signal chain that's having this affect on your virtual instruments. I would also suggest layering and seeing what you can do with the other backing strings, as they sound synthy - but it just depends on the sound you're going for. But overall, your making the mix very mid-heavy, and removing the "air" and top end information.

Overall, using midi to layer in sounds to "fill them up" is super-easy and goes a long way. Recently I was playing with a track of my own where the piano was "okay" but seemed to be lacking warmth. Copy/paste the mid info, add in a 70s electric piano and mix underneath the main part. Warmth without changing the main piano sound. =)

P.S. Also EQ your reverb.

Good luck!
Brad

Thanks Brad
Thanks very much for your specific pointers. I reckon that it will take me a while to absorb your comments, but your advice is specific, and I am sure to be on a learning curve as a result; just the sort of advice that I am grateful to receive on this forum. So thanks for that. EQing reverb is advice which I recall having received before (as in treat reverb as an instrument), so I will definitely follow up on that.

It seems clear to me at this stage that EQ issues are mainly what I need to resolve.

Thanks for the comments and advice
and cheers
Michael

[BradGray]

No problem. The best thing you can do is work with your eq, and listen to the differences it can make. For the most part, I try to "cut" rather than to "add" to EQ, aka frequency boosting. Most importantly though, you can't put lipstick on a pig. If those frequencies are not present in your tracks, then you may have problems with the sounds that you've chosen; no information to boost or cut. If it sounds good up front, it's easier to mix. If it's off, then you'll spend a ton of time trying to make it sound better, than to just go and find new sounds.

Wrt Reverb - Do a quick google for the "Abbey Road Reverb Trick". There are tons of great pointers out there for how to work with reverb and eq.

P.S. I did like the playing and performance of the track; that's not the issue here.

Cheers,
Brad

[AlanHall]

Michael,
The new piano VI is way better than the first! So you are off in the right direction. The one thing I seemed to notice is that all the key velocities seem (to my ear) to be in the higher end of the range, making the over piano sound round and full, and slightly muffled. Look at your piano roll to see if there's very little note-on velocity below 60 or so. That's my suspicion. Lowering the note velocities may help the piano speak in a brighter, more poignant, voice.

And if the velocities are all clustered near the top, examine what your MIDI controller has set for velocity scaling. There are often presets that be selected to match your playing style with the particular voicing of the VI you're using. Just a thought. Good luck, and have fun with it!

[MJLeeman]

No problem. The best thing you can do is work with your eq, and listen to the differences it can make. For the most part, I try to "cut" rather than to "add" to EQ, aka frequency boosting. Most importantly though, you can't put lipstick on a pig. If those frequencies are not present in your tracks, then you may have problems with the sounds that you've chosen; no information to boost or cut. If it sounds good up front, it's easier to mix. If it's off, then you'll spend a ton of time trying to make it sound better, than to just go and find new sounds.

Wrt Reverb - Do a quick google for the "Abbey Road Reverb Trick". There are tons of great pointers out there for how to work with reverb and eq.

P.S. I did like the playing and performance of the track; that's not the issue here.

Cheers,
Brad

Thanks Brad
I will follow up on your recommendations, particularly as regards EQing reverb and the Abbey Road trick. Before I noted your advice, I had received the vocal stems from my vocalist for the song, so I have mixed the vocal stems into the track, and I have made a note to incorporate your suggestions into my next mix. Your input is instructive and I appreciate it.

Cheers
Michael Leeman

[MJLeeman]

Michael,
The new piano VI is way better than the first! So you are off in the right direction. The one thing I seemed to notice is that all the key velocities seem (to my ear) to be in the higher end of the range, making the over piano sound round and full, and slightly muffled. Look at your piano roll to see if there's very little note-on velocity below 60 or so. That's my suspicion. Lowering the note velocities may help the piano speak in a brighter, more poignant, voice.

And if the velocities are all clustered near the top, examine what your MIDI controller has set for velocity scaling. There are often presets that be selected to match your playing style with the particular voicing of the VI you're using. Just a thought. Good luck, and have fun with it!

Thanks Alan
I had actually spent some time editing the velocities of the midi piano track, and I have discovered that different VIs respond quite differently to the inputed midi velocities when you substitute one piano vst for another. So I played around with that editing process for quite a while. Some samples seemed to have threshholds where the velolity response changed abruptly rather than being gradual. So I may have messed this up. And with the East West piano plugins, I have noticed that there is a velocity sensitivity tool, operated by the left mouse pointer, which allows for some normalisation/scaling? of the velocities to suit different playing styles. I haven't quite mastered that process yet, but at least the East West piano sounds seem okay, even if I have not fully edited the midi input yet.

In the meantime, I have done an initial mix (still a way to go) of the song including vocals (not me singing) on my Taxi page. I can hear that the clarity of the strings and woodwind accompaniment is not yet there and the vocal track processing is incomplete.

https://www.taxi.com/members/nwRU7pygQr ... out-a-word

Thank you for your input - very helpful and much appreciated.

[AlanHall]

I had actually spent some time editing the velocities of the midi piano track, and I have discovered that different VIs respond quite differently to the inputed midi velocities when you substitute one piano vst for another. So I played around with that editing process for quite a while. Some samples seemed to have threshholds where the velolity response changed abruptly rather than being gradual. So I may have messed this up. And with the East West piano plugins, I have noticed that there is a velocity sensitivity tool, operated by the left mouse pointer, which allows for some normalisation/scaling? of the velocities to suit different playing styles. I haven't quite mastered that process yet, but at least the East West piano sounds seem okay, even if I have not fully edited the midi input yet.

Great! The reason for my observation was that the piano attacks seemed rather 'hard' to my liking. Just my opinion, of course
I'm glad you're aware of that data and the associated tools. Everything becomes important at some point in the process. Keep at it!

[Paulie]

I'm late to the dance, so my first listen is your most recent update. This is a beautiful song, well done. The chords and key changes are very complex, it leans Broadway to me versus pop for sure.

The piano sounds good to me, but with the reverb as is it sounds like it is in the background, like the singer is not near it at all. I'd roll back the "wetness" of the reverb, or go with a smaller room.

I also did not hear a flute solo... probably a good thing because most producers out there are not fond of wind instrument solos. I say this as a wind instrument player.

Is this a labor of love, or are you targeting a specific use-case for this?

Paul

[MJLeeman]

I'm late to the dance, so my first listen is your most recent update. This is a beautiful song, well done. The chords and key changes are very complex, it leans Broadway to me versus pop for sure.

The piano sounds good to me, but with the reverb as is it sounds like it is in the background, like the singer is not near it at all. I'd roll back the "wetness" of the reverb, or go with a smaller room.

I also did not hear a flute solo... probably a good thing because most producers out there are not fond of wind instrument solos. I say this as a wind instrument player.

Is this a labor of love, or are you targeting a specific use-case for this?

Paul

Thanks, Paul, for listening to the music and for your kind observation. I agree with your comment regarding dropping the amount of reverb on the piano so as to bring the singer and accompanist closer together. I took off most of the reverb on the VI preset, but it seems that I added too much reverb back in from my DAW. Possibly I might also need to EQ the reverb, which I have been advised about, but which I don't yet fully understand. Regarding your query whether the song is a labour of love or if I have a specific target in mind, I would say that the former is the case, though at the same time, especially over the past few months, I have been trying to get hold of more up-to-date sounds and to learn how to improve production skills generally, which hopefully will increase my future chances of getting forwards.

Cheers
Michael

[Paulie]

Possibly I might also need to EQ the reverb, which I have been advised about, but which I don't yet fully understand.

Audio travels directionally through your DAW, starting with the sound source itself and then through whatever plugins and buses you rout it to. So if you think of where the sound starts, and where it ends up, just insert an EQ after the reverb, then cut away the low end so that you are not applying reverb to all of those low end frequencies and creating rumble/mud. Some reverb effects have an EQ built in, so you can experiment with that as well.