Song Form ABCABC-C?

[timwelchtwo]

Hey all,Those pesky screeners are such sticklers for proper song form. Before I invest any time in doing an arrangement where it goe v-pc-c v-pc-c(c), I wanted to know if anyone has had a returned submission because of improper song form by going abcabc (c)? I also would love to know what all of your experience is with songs that were not forwarded due to improper song form. I found the songwriting books very informative about proper song form. Rules are made to be broken, but not if it means none of our songs will get forwarded right?I would love to know your thoughts on this as I am a newbie.Thanks,Tim

[silvercord]

Hey Tim...Hmm....To be honest...a song could fit with a chorus after a chorusjust depending on the feeling of the song...the groooovelook at "hey jude" and "take it to the limit"....;)i would see how maybe the screener thinks its a bit redundantbut i think you have to just trust your feelings its a good songand throw it out there...and it may be good for you if you posteda link of the song to stream here to get helpful feedback from all of the kind folks that care enough to give you a leg up!wish i could help more (ack!..one of my fav. songs i have recorded has repeating choruses...now you got me wondering:P)peacegeoff

[Casey H]

Hi TimThis is always an interesting subject. For song pitches to artists, I would expect tougher screening on song format whereas with film/TV you may have a little more leeway. In film/TV, sometimes having the right general sound can work, though very good songs are still expected or they won't get listened to.That being said, I think if a song deviates from standard format, it better have such a great hook that it overrides any concern here. You mentioned ABCABC-C... I assume you do not mean the second C as a repeat chorus (which would be pretty standard), but a different one. That is unusual BUT if you have them hooked by ABCABC, I don't think they will care. Most decisions are made in the first 60 seconds. If that first 'C' is a killer chorus, I think it's fine. Sometimes when a song just doesn't grab a reviewer (screener, publisher, etc) for a variety of reasons, they start listing all the things that are possibly wrong with it.If you are pitching to artists, it's rare that a song without a great chorus by 60 seconds will get anywhere. Casey

[horacejesse]

So far I have never known a Taxi screener not to point out any lack of orthodoxy with other than negative connotations when it comes to a song's form and the listing is for a song pitch. I have only submitted song pitches for high bar country, but my feel for things tells me the same philosphy prevails in other high bar song-pitch categories.Though it is mentioned negatively, it is never given as the reason for not forwarding, but you are left with the feeling that it certainly contributed to the decision.I think there are times it simply does not matter that your chorus does not explode, but the Taxi screener has a strong conditioning to mention it anyway.Taxi, I believe, is geared toward finding what is stylistically hot today, rather than what could be hot next year. I am talking only about high bar song pitches for current artists. Entertainment execs try to catch a ride on the current trend. You see it in all forms of entertainment. One dumb TV show breeds five copycats. A cheap looking monster movie somehow succeeds and breeds ten sequels.It is my understanding that Taxi does not write the listings but writes them down as they are dictated by the listing party, shaping them into Taxi's standard format.Taxi supplies the industry, like a vendor. In its machines you will find what is currently popular. As sales reps trying to get a new product placed into the machines, we can expect extra reluctance to place a product that is highly different from what is known to sell right now.You have to know the general tendencies of the screeners and anticipate the tendenceies of the gatekeeprs that come in later succession. Where do Taxi's screeners come from? The industry. They are probably decent gauges of later gatekeepers.

[edteja]

Quote:So far I have never known a Taxi screener not to point out any lack of orthodoxy with other than negative connotations when it comes to a song's form and the listing is for a song pitch. I have only submitted song pitches for high bar country, but my feel for things tells me the same philosphy prevails in other high bar song-pitch categories. The very act of screening involves a certain amount of second guessing. Even with screeners who are intimately involved in the industry, all they can do is read the listing, or hear the person talk and try to translate that into music. Just as the writers do. So, when a producer or A&R person says I want something like so and so, and the screener knows that so and so always uses a certain format, the conclusion is inevitable. The screener, to maintain credibility, has to err on the side of sending material that is dead on, versus speculating (although I am sure they do at times). Screeners (whether at Taxi, or anywhere else) are caught between the "I know they would love this" and their knowledge of what has gone before. Just as we are. It's an imperfect situation, which is what makes it so cool when someone breaks through, I think.

[linziellen]

Thought I'd slip this in here, not sure it'll get picked up but it relates to this thread.I'm sat writing a song which goes like this...First verse - A A A A...B B B BChorus - A A B B B B - those last two will probably be the title.If I carry on like this does it risk sounding like something out of telly tubbies? I really like it myself but I'm not sure what to do next!Thanks for any ideas PS - hope you don't mind Tim!

[bleuciel]

Hi Tim!I don't think there is a magical structure for writing songs that will get some forwards because of that structure. It's always a question of context...IMHO You told that you've read some songwriting books. Have you got that one: Little Black Book of Songwriting by Michael Anderson.http://michaelanderson.home.mindspring. ... ndex.htmlI think it's one of the best I know because of its simplicity. Here is the way Michael Anderson introduce his book: This light, easy to read, simple to understand ebook will help you focus your songwriting and write better songs by explaining in plain, conversational English what music business professionals are listening for in evaluating songs for pitching, publishing, and recording. This guy has written hit songs and he is (or he was???) a Taxi screener. You can buy it in download, on cd or paper book. Hope this will help.P.S. Just in case: I swear on the head of my mother, my grandmother, my cat, my goldfish and/or anything you want that this post is not a spam !!!

[sgs4u]

I also bought Anderson's book, about a year ago. It's filled with perfect songwriting info, very concise and devoid of opinionated generalizations. In my dreams, I've already written this book...You'll never be sorry you bought it!

[mikegoudreau]

I also bought Mr. Anderson's book ( Audio CD version ) a year ago, and I listen to it every 2 months or so in my car when traveling to gigs...It's a VERY useful tool and it's helped me realize the things I've been doing right and helped me improve on things that I should work on...Michael Anderson wrote this book to help songwriters get that info that only well informed people like him could give ( he's a Taxi screener and knows the insides and outs of the music bizz)...And the bonus is he's a cool dude too ! MG

[vicky]

hey there,all the forms work IMO, and with rules that are supposed to be broken....For listings I look at genre, and then the song forms; it seems to help with being on target for the listing; flow and intensity are the next to dictate the form...and then there are songs that have a subtle form....meaning they play the same music continuously, and the variance is almost all in the melody....hmm....so many ways that really work well....the song writers nook is an interesting place....hmm....going back to the original post, ....I look at form to help be on target for the listing, and try not... an electronica form in a funk song....vtbp...