Surf Rock and Drum Advice

[JPF]

I am relatively new to Taxi, and just took a year off due to work/raising kids/etc. I'm starting back, and tried submitting to a recent surf rock instrumental (cited below). It was returned with the comment "...the drums sound too MIDI and computer-generated, which becomes apparent in the never-changing Ride cymbal sound and the tom fills."

Now I have 2 questions:

1) Any advice on how I can fix these drums? They're not MIDI, it's recorded loops. I thought I had varied the loops up, but I guess not enough. Should I try drum replacement? Layering loops? What are others using for drums in their submissions?

2) After listening to other recent surf rock submissions posted on the forum I feel mine sounds pretty raw and not nearly as clean and finished as the others. Any advice on the mix in general and how I can improve it?

Here's the piece:

https://soundcloud.com/music-dad/beach-town-blowout

Here's the listing:

Y140507SI UPBEAT SURF ROCK INSTRUMENTALS are needed by a well-connected, boutique Music Library that's constantly pitching directly to top Reality and Network TV Shows. They need Mid-to-Up-Tempo Instrumentals in the stylistic ballpark of Dick Dale, The Ventures, The Challengers, etc...

Thanks in advance for the feedback!

Jon

[andygabrys]

welcome back!

keep in mind that anything that follows is just an opinion, and you should do some listening to other surf tunes or tunes in general to make sure that what you read resonates with you. so with that said, here's my 2 cents.

First off, bummer on the return. On the other hand, most people get more returns than forwards, and the screeners feedback is some more info to use the next time this kind of listing shows up. Listings like this seem to come up every year.

second - the screeners don't know for sure what you used for drums - so while these are "real drummer loops" they give the impression that they are a loop, either a MIDI loop or an audio drum loop because of their unchanging nature.

If you can't afford a real drummer, most people these days use drummer played MIDI loops triggering a drum virtual instrument. MIDI loops are very customizable both in velocity (varying some of those hits on the ride cymbal bell can help to make the drum "play what the band is playing") and in hit location so you can vary patterns and fills to fit the song. Some different drum VI's are Addictive Drums, Native Instruments Studio Drummer, BFD, Superior Drummer, EZ Drummer, Ocean Way Drums and MANY More. Some MIDI loops are available from a number of sources like Toontrack, GrooveMonkee, Oddgrooves, Loop Loft etc). There are plenty of places that you can get real audio drum loops as well, but sometimes these are more useful for styles of music where the beat is relatively unchanging - maybe hip-hop or trip-hop especially if they are layered with other loops or MIDI / drum VI's

Then there is the whole art of how to use the presets in the drum VI's, especially what kind of kit to use to begin with modern or "vintage", and what to do in addition to make things sound "live" or "real". Things like parallel compression, tape saturation effects etc.

the good news that many DAW's come with an included virtual drummer plugin that is a good start.

As far as the mix in general - well first assume that the composition was totally fine and appropriate:

#1 thing to do is to listen to a lot of surf rock tunes (well at least 5 or 10) and perhaps read up on the production techniques and era on the web - then note the following:

What kind of guitars and amps were used?
what kinds of kits?
what are the typical kind of rhythms that the bass would play?
How does that hook up with the drums?
was it recorded to tape or to digital?
are the sounds bright or are they dull?
are the sounds lo-fi and distorted in some way?
As lo-fi as the sounds may be, how is the performance? does it sound like band that played together a lot or does it sound like unpolished as far as the playing? If you could go in and edit a part to make it sound tighter, would it be necessary?
where the sounds usually panned? are the lead instruments in the center? where is the bass? Where are the drums (caveat, lots of old stereo mixes put the drums on one side - this may or may not be something to do today where most people expect a stereo centered drum set - your call)
Are the sounds dry? If not, is it delay (echo) or reverb? What is the character of the reverb? Is it smooth and non-intrusive? or is it bright and splashy? Is there a little effect or it it bathed in effect? If it seems pretty wet in effect, does the reverb decay quickly or is it still ringing in the next bar?
How loud is the production? Does it sound as loud as pop tunes of today? Or is it something else? What kind of Psuedo-mastering technique was used.

Now do the same thing with your production.

Note the similarities and differences. Its the differences that put your tune in another zone.

I hope that helps.

[MattCurious]

Hi there

First - welcome back! Just had a little break myself and trying to get back in the swing of things.

A couple of quick thoughts. I just played your tune and then youtubed a couple of random instrumentals - literally just searched "surf rock" (it turned this playlist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-OyMU5I ... F5B9F481E6 )

The thing that jumped out at me from your mix was that it seems to be "LCR" - hard left, hard right and some stuff in the centre. I felt pulled back and forth by the guitars, whereas a lot of the mixes on this playlist are all centred.

The second thing that jumped out was that the distortion on your chords felt a little muddier than that on the playlist. I suspect the distortion on the playlist is genuine gain distortion rather than an effect that was applied for ... well, effect. Maybe roll that back a little?

I also felt that a lot of the guitars on the playlist were quite bright and a little jangly, whereas yours felt a bit muddy (in terms of frequency as opposed to distortion on this occasion). I'd suggest rerecording them with different settings on the instrument and/or amp to start with - as you'll have better luck getting the right frequencies in the actual recording rather than in post.

Hope those are useful - just my own ideas.

Matt

[HectorRContreras]

Hello dear Music-Dad,

Yes, we had problem in the past too, with Screeners telling us that it sounded Midi, when it was not Midi at all but our playing, or as you said, when it was recorded Loops !
It seems that the very best new Softwares are only acceptable nowadays, or a Man and his Piano, or a Man and his Guitar, or hiring a real Violinist, etc ...
Or a Band playing in Collaboration at someone's Studio ...

Anyway, when we cannot afford all this above, we have to think smart.

For instance, in the case of a Flute, we may have a nice Sound, but this is not enough, as we have to remember that a real Flute player would need to ... breathe ! The same applies to Saxo and Trumpet and Clarinet, obviously.
Same for Cymbals and Drums, if the Sound is perfect, but the Phrases are long and monotonous ... and repetitive, it does not bring about authenticity.

So I have learned to use the Tools at end and to play with them.
I have Garage Band, also named Logic, so when I compose I can see like coloured straps, which I can : duplicate, cut, amplify, des amplify, repeat with another Instrument yes, using several Layers, and modulate thanks to the Master Track, use Reverb, Echo, Compression, Panning, etc etc ...
It makes it all more authentic. But it takes time !

That's for the Tools.

As for the Composition itself, I recommend Dynamics, Phrases, Changes, Hooks, Breaks, Bridges, Waves or Mood Swells (Thanks dear Graham ! ) etc ...
It is practice, practice ...

[LittleRedChurch]

I think this is pretty cool!

As far as your issue goes, to MEEEEE, I'd say you have too much distinction between your instruments. Too much separation. IF the drums stand out to you it's probably because they're not really blended into the sound. I wouldn't pan your two guitars so much. Bring em together and it may sound more like a band recorded in some Dad's garage, in L.A. in the 50's. I actually kinda liked those drums!! I think the theme of your song is good, too. Nice lick, right era!

LRC

[JPF]

Wow. Thanks for the detailed feedback everyone. This is much more than I was expecting, and I'll spend some time following the advice.

Thanks again.

Jon