Taxi is close to worthless for singer/songwriters

[Casey H]

Bill
I agree with you than most successful perfomers never picked up a songwriting book and would probably laugh at the thought. But I'd bet that if you look at their songs you'll find that most of the time they are doing the same things (as in the books), just naturally.

Casey

[billg1]

Bill
I agree with you than most successful perfomers never picked up a songwriting book and would probably laugh at the thought. But I'd bet that if you look at their songs you'll find that most of the time they are doing the same things (as in the books), just naturally.

Casey

yep.

[ottlukk]

Rob:
You have a PM.
Ott

[kvnlnt]

This really is a fascinating topic. To me what "works" in a song is it's ability to make the listener feel something they enjoy feeling...and that is straight up psychology....not to mention including the nature vs. nurture discussion. If you were born in India, you'd probably be jamming to a sitar and loving it. Regardless, "harmony" is a mathematical relationship that appeals to the mind. Therefore there are pre-existing pathways in the mind that like certain acoustic relationship phenomena. What we have today is years and years and years of examples of what has been working to "pick that lock". They are "design patterns" that work...and it only makes sense to base your own design's off of them. However, this does not preclude that somebody can't figure out a new pattern that works just as well...and it is this later component that is impressive to me. Being able to get the same results with something unconventional...now that get's me excited. However, I must admit, I still love songs with a I,IV,V and the whole "do it, do it again, go away, come back"....they're design patterns that appeal to a framework that's already there in all our brains...it's just taking advantage of those pre-existing pathways.

[dannydep]

This really is a fascinating topic. To me what "works" in a song is it's ability to make the listener feel something they enjoy feeling................................

Well, I’m glad this topic has taken on a different direction and I’d just like to make a bit of a different observation of Kevin’s comment.
I can think of many songs that have grabbed at my guts not because they gave me an enjoyable feeling from listening but that I could empathize deeply with the story being told
and especially from my own personal point of view from the musical story being told.

I can think of many lyrical stories that have touched me, Sting’s Fragile is one, but I have to really think about a musical story that touches me.

One that stands out is Alison Krauss and Union Station’s Maybe.
I can remember the first time I heard it playing in the background somewhere.
As that dissonant harmony started I said to myself, “what the f*** was that?”
I wasn’t near enough to the source (that and being half deaf) to really hear what was going on.
The next time I recognized the song I made it a point to listen. Now, I can’t get the damned thing out of my head.

And it’s not from the enjoyment of hearing it.

I think it comes from a deep respect for their musicianship in how they can come so close to making me feel like someone is
scratching their fingernails on a chalk board and yet make me want to listen to it again and again.

There is a psychology of obsession somewhere in there and I don’t know whether or not it is good or bad.
It definitely has me mesmerized.
Opps! I just thought of another song that gives me a heavenly feeling when I listen to it.
But I’ll save that for another day.

[kvnlnt]

dannydep, I'm hearing you...no pun intended!!!

[Casey H]

Nice to see the conversation on an even emotional keel...

A few thoughts, strictly MHO’s… I am a non-performer, so bear that in mind when considering what I am saying.

It's not an exact science. However, it's important not to fall back on "being unique like act XYZ was when they got signed" when the material isn't really that compelling. Yes, "compelling" is not the same to everyone. But there have been many times I've heard a song here that was "just OK" (e.g. didn't blow anyone away), didn't get forwarded, and the member fell back on the "break the rules", "new and different", etc. arguments.

If you write something that completely blows the doors of listeners, much less about “rules” will be said. But few of us have written those songs. I know I haven't.

Sometimes A&R (for performers looking to get signed) present conflicting views as to what they want. On one hand they DO want something fresh and new. On the other, they are scared that if they don’t copycat what’s already popular, they’ll fail. Every once in a while someone takes a chance on something different and makes a killing. Then that new style gets copycatted for a while until something else breaks free. These guys are risking their livelihoods when they make decisions. The music industry not what it was 30-40 years ago.

In today’s world, if you are a singer-songwriter and feel you have something fresh and new, you usually have to DIY and prove yourself with 30,000 CDs sold before a label will take a chance on you. So if you believe that your music, rules or no rules, is that good, go out and sell a sh*tload of CDs and build a buzz. Of course, that’s incredibly hard. Not saying otherwise.

My feeling is, unless you can do the above, lean much more toward conventional rules.

Casey

[watksco]

Bill
I agree with you than most successful perfomers never picked up a songwriting book and would probably laugh at the thought. But I'd bet that if you look at their songs you'll find that most of the time they are doing the same things (as in the books), just naturally.
Casey

That's probably strictly true, but there are different ways to be a 'student' than by picking up a book. I've often heard it quoted that the guys from ABBA studied the top10 songs of the day to try to uncover what it was that made them hits - and I'm sure they werent the first or the last to do that.

I've heard/read many an interview where a great/successful writer would articulate their process in almost text book fashion.

Would it be true to say that the true 'naturals' i.e. those that write great songs and are un-aware of the rights and wrongs are rare?

Scott

[kvnlnt]

Would it be true to say that the true 'naturals' i.e. those that write great songs and are un-aware of the rights and wrongs are rare?

Exactly Scott. When I was in college my graphic design professor deemed two types of artists: Classical and Romantic. The Classical is always looking/cataloging and formulating their art as if it were a science and can spit out their "techniques" on the spot...the Romantic "feels" their way around. I think it's the "Romantics" that get labeled "naturals" because they seem to be doing it effortlessly and out of nowhere and have a hard time sharing "how" they "do it". However, a couple years ago a talented songwriter acquaintance of mine who is clearly a Romantic explained to me that he approaches his writing in what I thought was the oddest way. He imagines he's at a concert, in the crowd...then imagines the lights dimming, the music starting and let's his imagination go/direct where this "song/performance" is going...or in what direction it would need to go to move him personally. I thought to myself that's brilliant!!! Since then, I've found a few other writers who approach it in similar ways. From this (being a Classical who's a wanna-be Romantic)...I've derived two things:

1) If I can develop a great appreciation and taste for great music myself...then doing exercise like this could prove to be very useful....by projecting my personal taste on some fictitious artist, I might go in directions and take risks I might not usually take...and with great results.
2) This is a song writing method!!!!...."naturals" I guess naturally take an approach that renders good results and ironically...are abiding by good song writing principles...via points made in my previous post (ready made "pathways" on account of nature/nuture...)

Also, years ago I found an online resource that I reference from time to time. http://www.billpere.com/...have any of you ever checked out this resource? I think it's great...what do you guys all think?...specifically the resources located here: http://www.billpere.com/Songwriter_Tools.htm