Taxi say this platinum artist has tuning issues?

[euromantix]

Hi all, I hope to get your feedback to see if you agree with Taxi's recent review of the song I co-wrote and published, called 'Stay For Life':http://www.taximusic.com/stream/166889/ ... 3Unbeknown to Taxi, this song was released 12 months ago on an album by platinum-selling artist Andy Abraham. You can buy this song right now in most record shops or on iTunes. Those from the UK will know Andy Abraham was the runner up in The X-Factor (the original of the franchise also known as American Idol etc. around the world), represented the UK on his own at the Eurovision Song Contest in front of hundreds of millions of TV viewers last year, and was signed to Simon Cowell's SonyBMG for 3 albums, which all went either gold or platinum.Without knowing the song has already been commercially released, or that he is a platinum-selling and much loved singer, or that MSN Music reviewed this song as 'the strongest song on the album' when they reviewed the record, Taxi reviewed the track as follows.I would first take this opportunity to clarify that I am not quibbling the suitability of the 'style' for this listing, which may have contributed slightly to it being rejected, but I am quibbling over the other points which seemed to make up the majority of the rejection comments, and I feel therefore the reviewer makes it clear that these were the 'main' reasons for the rejection:S090408SS: SINGER-SONGWRITER SONGS a la Matt Nathanson, Howie Day, Sara Bareilles, etc., are needed by an established Music Publisher in L.A. who has secured TONS of Film/TV placements for many TAXI members. All tempos will be considered. Solid performances are necessary and recordings need to be Broadcast Quality (excellent home recordings should be just fine). Male or female vocals are just fine. They offer a non-exclusive, 50/50 split deal - you keep your original copyrights. Please submit one to three songs online or per CD. All submissions will be screened and critiqued by TAXI and must be received no later than Wednesday, April 8, 2009. TAXI #S090408SSReview:yes this is a pop ballad... but is aligned more with a retro vibe and sound. As well there are some pitch issue in the vocal performance that must be addressed and therefore this song does not quite fit for this listing.Style:not in keeping with the artists mentioned in this listing (i.e. Matt Nathanson, Howie Day, Sara Bareilles)Overall Comments:The main focus here is on 2 issues. First, updating the overall feel of the track. Trying to enhance the quality of the instrumentation used to feel less synthetic and project more soul and professionalism would help a lot. [This was commercially released on an album].As well, the vocals must be spot on to get a forward for TV/Film as there cannot be any off notes. There are some issues with your pitch throughout the tune which is something you must rectify to obtain forwards for listings like this one that deal with TV/Film. good luck.Sound Quality:track feels quite small and synthetic. probably need to address the sounds you are using.The main reason(s) you were or were not forwarded for this listing is:the style is off and the vocal needs attention with pitch issues.What concerns me greatly is that Taxi are saying that a song that is good enough for a commercial album release by an artist who has sold hundreds of thousands of records, is not good enough for forward to one of their Film/TV libraries.Do you agree with their review, that this commercial release by a great singer has "tuning issues", "off notes", "issues with pitch throughout the tune", and that the instrumentation is "synthetic" and does not "project ... professionalism"?

[aubreyz]

A couple of things... first, just because something is commercially released by a "platinum" artist doesn't by default mean it is great. Second, it certainly doesn't mean that it would fit a listing if off target.Also, just for the record, though he's been signed to Simon Cowell's label for three albums, this was independently produced. Honestly, though this is a decent recording, I've heard better quality from some people around here who have home studios.The intro sounds very midi and boxy. By midi, I mean it sounds quantized, stiff and sampled. The lo-fi drum loop kind of adds to that unreal sound. It's clear by the time the track builds that this was a production decision and not necessarily a matter of quality, but I think the screener's description is spot on -- that's what it sounds like.Quote:the vocals must be spot on to get a forward for TV/Film as there cannot be any off notes. There are some issues with your pitch throughout the tune which is something you must rectify to obtain forwards for listings like this one that deal with TV/Film.This guy is a good singer, but this is not the greatest vocal take and there are several things that should have been at least cleaned up by the engineer or recut. I won't list every one, but as an example, listen to the last line of the 1st verse leading into the chorus-- the falsetto run. It's very pitchy and he runs out of air and just kind of trails off.All that to say, if I didn't know who this artist was, I would not be that impressed by this track or vocal and I think the screener was dead on. Some of this stuff is subjective though, and simply a matter of opinion. If the listing were right, it's very possible that this could be forwarded.Unfortunately, often the screeners are that dead on about some of my stuff too. Aub

[euromantix]

Thanks for all the feedback guys - it seems there is almost unanimous agreement that the reviewer was wrong about the apparent tuning issues in the vocal. I won't reply to every one of you, as you're essentially all agreeing with my perspective.Thanks for the feedback Aub too... Jun 2, 2009, 8:18am, aubreyz wrote:The intro sounds very midi and boxy. By midi, I mean it sounds quantized, stiff and sampled. The lo-fi drum loop kind of adds to that unreal sound. It's clear by the time the track builds that this was a production decision and not necessarily a matter of quality, but I think the screener's description is spot on -- that's what it sounds like.You're right, this was a production decision. The intro is intended to sound retro. It sounds quantised because it is quantised. It's that nice trick that when there is more contrast between the quality of two sections, then the better section 'appears' even better than it actually may be. The point I was trying to make above was of course not with reference to the intro! To clarify, I just cannot comprehend (neither apparently can any other poster) how by the time the reviewer gets to the momentum and build that this track has, particularly the 3rd chorus if not before, he/she could possibly make the comments they did about it This does lead one to the conclusion that they perhaps didn't bother listening to the full song Quote:...this is not the greatest vocal take and there are several things that should have been at least cleaned up ... listen to the last line of the 1st verse leading into the chorus-- the falsetto run. It's very pitchy and he runs out of air and just kind of trails off.It's so strange how I (and others) just cannot hear this. I pride myself on having a normally excellent ear. I have lived with this song during production and beyond, and just cannot hear anything "pitchy". That word - to me - means his pitch i.e. tuning is off, IOW he is singing some notes out of tune. Can you clarify which words or syllables are sung out of tune - to your ear - please?Quote:Unfortunately, often the screeners are that dead on about some of my stuff too. Ahaha it's not just me then Thanks for your feedback.

[aubreyz]

Jun 2, 2009, 9:03am, euromantix wrote: Jun 2, 2009, 8:18am, aubreyz wrote:The intro sounds very midi and boxy. By midi, I mean it sounds quantized, stiff and sampled. The lo-fi drum loop kind of adds to that unreal sound. It's clear by the time the track builds that this was a production decision and not necessarily a matter of quality, but I think the screener's description is spot on -- that's what it sounds like.You're right, this was a production decision. The intro is intended to sound retro. It sounds quantised because it is quantised. It's that nice trick that when there is more contrast between the quality of two sections, then the better section 'appears' even better than it actually may be. The point I was trying to make above was of course not with reference to the intro! To clarify, I just cannot comprehend (neither apparently can any other poster) how by the time the reviewer gets to the momentum and build that this track has, particularly the 3rd chorus if not before, he/she could possibly make the comments they did about it This does lead one to the conclusion that they perhaps didn't bother listening to the full song It's worth noting that Taxi has strict policies concerning screeners listening to tracks. Just like cutting and pasting, if a screener takes shortcuts, they will be fired. I've been to Taxi, looked through the training materials, have seen the checks and balances. Anything is possible, but it's very improbable that the screener didn't listen all the way.Yeah, listening to the whole track it's more obvious that this was fully produced. The vocal layering as it builds is nice. However, the first impression is not that way, or at least to me. The first vocal sounds very dry and almost apart from the track... not talking about the vocal performance - just the production. It get's better, but first impressions are hard to get over. Others might have differing opinions, but I would characterize the track by that more than the build later. Generally you have 10 to 15 secs to grab interest, though this is a good track overall, I probably wouldn't have gotten to the build if I was just listening to listen.btw- I'm not saying that all my opinions are correct, but I do have a bit of experience in this game. Just saying that there is usually some basis to differing opinions. Not everyone, or every screener is going to have the same opinions.Quote:It's so strange how I (and others) just cannot hear this. I pride myself on having a normally excellent ear. I have lived with this song during production and beyond, and just cannot hear anything "pitchy". That word - to me - means his pitch i.e. tuning is off, IOW he is singing some notes out of tune. Can you clarify which words or syllables are sung out of tune - to your ear - please? By way of coincidence, I was listening to some old stuff of mine yesterday. Some of the things that I thought were great at the time, I cringe at now. It's easy to miss the forest for the trees when you live with something during the whole production phase.Here's what I hear -- from the top, just a couple of examples. First line, the words "along" and "lane" His vibrato is pretty deep, which is not a bad thing, but he also scoops some too. It's not horrible by any stretch, but that deep of vibrato combined with scooping gives an out of pitch impression. It would be easy to fix and most of what you hear on the radio is fixed, one way or another. Mind you, I'm being VERY picky, but that's where the bar is. Sometimes you can squeak by with something that is this close, but there's pretty stiff competition out there, even for TV placements.The biggest thing for me is that line I mentioned at the end of the first verse... "hear these words I say...e" Listen to the word Say to the end. He's not dead on pitch wise, not enough breath support, and then the little run at the end goes way off... the last note is cut off like he ran out of air and is VERY off pitch IMHO. One reason all of this is so stark and obvious is because of the vocal mix.Listen to Even If on his myspace page. The vocal, from the first note sounds better. There's some subtle reverb, I'm going to guess a little doubling, and some nice subtle vocal delays to even things out. I would bet money that if Stay For Life were remixed, it would sound just as good.On another topic, do you have master rights and performance waivers for this track? Just curious.Aub

[euromantix]

Thanks for the additional feedback. I still find it astonishing that Taxi (and someone here) think this production needs work, or sounds like a 'home recording'. It was mixed by the legendary Dave Bascombe (Elton John, Placebo, Goldfrapp, Verve, Kylie Minogue, Moby, Bon Jovi, Wheatus, David Bowie, Stereophonics, Peter Gabriel, etc.). I'm not saying that listing a load of names, statistics, and other track record stuff necessarily means that this production quality is automatically great, but it kinda points the finger towards the fact that the majority of people who have replied to this thread are correct that it is. Maybe I should refer Taxi to Dave Bascombe and they can discuss their complaints about the quality of the recording and lack of AutoTune with him (And yes, I have the right to pitch this - you can leave that side of things to me )

[euromantix]

Thanks guys, it certainly does seem to be a very subjective thing doesn't it! I'm not overly worried about not getting this forward - I am used to knock-backs as are we all, besides I already got the song released on a commercial album - that's the ultimate forward for me

[aubreyz]

Dave Bascombe is a great engineer. Been a fan since Tears for Fears days. Cool credit. Doesn't change my opinion of the vocal performance. And the engineer is usually at the mercy of both the producer and budget. Not saying this is the case, but I've done some cheap gigs where I couldn't fix everything I wanted to.IMHO your logic is kind of like this. BMW makes great cars. How could anyone think the 120d looks boxy. Well, I do The reason I asked about licensing, it seems kind of odd that you have a cut with so many supposed heaver hitters hands on it... you think it might be in a library because it was on Bones according to google... so evidently you don't have exclusive rights to the master...but as you suggested I will leave that side of things to you.Back to the production, IMHO this is not a stellar song, performance or production. It's good, never denied that, but it's not exactly Tears For Fears either. It seems that your main gripe is that the screener was wrong and so you should get your 5 bucks back. Seems rather trivial with all the names you are throwing around, but let's say hypothetically that the screener got the vocal part wrong. Bottom line is that this was submitted to the wrong listing. It's not stylistically in the same camp as the a la's in the listing, nor is it "singer-songwriter". Wrong genre. That's not Taxi's fault, that's your bad."Hey... I ordered this hamburger and it has no ham on it! Can I get my money back?" "Uh... no, it says right here on the menu two beef patties, sorry you misread it".Don't really know what your purpose in all this is, but I feel like it's a waste of my time. You asked for opinions, but the only opinions "in the universe" that you want to hear are ones that you agree with.And btw-- Are you telling me that you can't hear the wrong note (it's almost a vocal squeak) at the end of the first verse - "hear these words I say...e"? Really? That I find hardest to believe of any of this discussion.Over and out,Aub

[aubreyz]

Jun 2, 2009, 12:08pm, billg wrote:Wow, I just listened 4 times to the "hear the words I say" part and i don't hear the problem there. I hear the singer go to the falsetto and then four trailing falsetto accent notes . . . Aub is this what you hear as a squeak?The production nor the song either one is my cup of tea but I don't hear the pitch issues.Hmmm... that is odd. First listen, I cringed. To me it sounds like he chokes off the last note like there wasn't enough breath and almost squeaks. I guess that's how subjective this is. Were I tracking that, there's no way I would have kept that take, unless the guy just didn't have anything better -- but hearing his other cuts, he's got the goods. The bridge annoyed me too, but I didn't even get there.I was kind of surprised Vikki didn't seem to catch it either. But hey... never said my opinion was right, or the only one... but it is my opinion Aub

[billg]

I think it may come down to whether or not you use (or if your used to ) using some auto tune software.Ok funny story . . . When i posted a work version of a song once here on P2P. A "tough love" friend let me know that there were pitch problems (i knew there were, it was just a bit beyond my limited vocal capabilities). So this friend offers to pitch correct the track for me. Actually he did a really good job. I got the track back & was pretty impressed at how there weren't really any noticeable artifacts etc. Anyway, a listing came up and I submitted. Beyond the fact that it wasn't right for the listing it was also noted that there were some pitch problems. I think my voice is immune to pitch correction software here, for laughs;http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30969073/

[michael11]

Andy was one of my favourites and I am pleased he's achieved the level of success he has.To me his voice seems tired and is defiantly flat on some parts of the verses,it's great when he gets going though.I think it's a bit mean asking Taxi for a $5 refund,it's tax deductible isn't it???!!!