Unionization of composers? Last night's meeting...

[mojobone]

And yet the AF of M is still around. With film/TV production, the choice between union/nonunion labor has more to do with geography, except when it comes to actors. A second unit filming in Kazahkstan might be unable to find a union grip, for example, but union film crews can easily be found in Toronto, and generally for less than they'd cost in Burbank.

[BraveNote]

"the negotiations are entirely between myself and the listing party."Who are the screeners representing, the client or the artist? Both parties? Who's paying their salaries anyway? What if, the client and the artist were both members of the same union? Would there then, be a purpose for a union at all?Could be I don't have all the facts. But I'm seeing a conflict of interest here and that may be why theres so much confusion about unions in this particular environment. As long as we can keep the conflict going, there won't be any use for a union unless of course, both parties, the client and the artist are members.And that would lead to the question of, who/whom will be the final authority determining weather there's a union or not. Unions aren't in the business of being exclusionary by any means. Perhaps, it would be best for everyone in the industry to unionize because that would certainly level the playing field. One big happy socialist community?The Global Film&TV Composers Guild. What would be the acronym? And who would be overseeing the activities? The Fed?? HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!This is the entertainment business! The biggest sleaze business on the planet!! Just try to impose rules and regulations........LMAO!

[dovetail]

Nov 21, 2009, 9:06pm, hummingbird wrote:Teamsters union dues are 2.5 times your hourly rate, so if you make $10 an hour, your dues are $25 a month - or $300 a year. I don't know how they would calculate the dues of composers, who often don't earn money when they work now, but in the future, if & when the music is broadcast and cue sheets are filed. PS - we have Teamsters in Canada.

[dovetail]

Nov 21, 2009, 9:06pm, hummingbird wrote:I certainly hope that my status as non-union or union would have nothing to do with whether I am forwarded by TAXI. Unless it's for an artist deal, the music alone should be the criteria, IMO. After that, the negotiations are entirely between myself and the listing party. I can see a whole lot of difficulty with the idea that there would be a composers union. Who exactly would they define as a composer? Those who score films? Those who compose for tv? Those who sign music to music libraries? Songwriters pitching to artists? Lyricists? What would be the criteria for membership? Can anyone join, or will you have to have professional credits to qualify? Who is going to pay for this union? How much will it be per year? Will it be based in the States? Will it represent only US composers or will it be international? Teamsters union dues are 2.5 times your hourly rate, so if you make $10 an hour, your dues are $25 a month - or $300 a year. I don't know how they would calculate the dues of composers, who often don't earn money when they work now, but in the future, if & when the music is broadcast and cue sheets are filed. PS - we have Teamsters in Canada.

[dovetail]

Oops! Sorry for the double post about nothing.I was just wondering about how they would approach union dues and an initiation fee. AFTRA is up to $1600 to join, then a percentage of your yearly earnings as dues. Pretty steep for a lot of people just to get started in a union where way less that 5% make enough money to cover their health care and pension coverage through the union.

[mazz]

"Who are the screeners representing, the client or the artist? Both parties? Who's paying their salaries anyway?"The screeners are beholden to the listings, which are provided by the client. Their salaries are paid by TAXI, which in turn is paid by memberships. TAXI, as you probably already know, is only a middleman, or connector, between a client seeking great music, and composers providing great music. Once a composer is connected with a client via TAXI, TAXI is out of the picture as far as the negotiations between the composer and the client are concerned. I could swear we've been over this ground before but I guess it bears repeating.RE the composer's union: The point that seems to be missed here is that this whole thing is designed to represent composers that compose for films and TV shows, not library composers. In fact, to these folks, library composers are part of the problem because so many shows these days are "scored" by music editors using library music. The TV and Film business is almost 100% referral at the top tiers of the productions. A large production company that is spending lots of money on a production isn't going to do a craigslist ad for composers, chances are they are going to go with a known entity with a proven track record of delivering great music on time and within budget (or at least a strong referral from a trusted colleague). So unless you are in that echelon of composers, this union thing may not be applicable at this moment.The benefits of a union to the client, if done properly, is that it will try to guarantee a certain base level of professionalism and expertise. In the Screen Actor's Guild, you cannot become a member of the union until you have been on a certain number of union approved gigs, which means that you have to prove yourself as a professional actor before they will take you on. With a composer's guild, it would make sense that a composer would have to have scored a certain number of feature length films, or have worked under a union composer, or some sort of vetting process. Of course, at this juncture, it might be too late because the producers know they have composers over a barrel if they want to work. If Joe Composer doesn't take the package deal, then there's 5000 more Joe's and Jane's lined up behind him willing to starve to get a foot in the door (see paragraph below). Hopefully the producers would see the value in a vetted professional composer, but the chances are, they will find a non-union composer that's willing to work cheap. If a union is going to work, it has to have some power to cause pain to the producers and force them to treat composers fairly. Someone mentioned herding cats, an apt metaphor. This is a glamor profession as perceived from the outside, and lots of people want to get into it, most for all the wrong reasons. Why would someone turn down the chance at a film because the union says they should? Depends on your level of the business, doesn't it.Part of the whole problem is that anyone with a laptop and free software can call themselves a composer the minute they walk out of Costco with their laptop, even if they've never composed a note of music in their life. That coupled with musicians and "composers" more than willing to work for free or for only credits, and producers and directors that realize that and take advantage of it, the value of music has plummeted. We did it to ourselves. There will always be a need for high quality music and clients will always want to work with someone they know, like and trust. As in any service business, relationships are more valuable than money. I suggest we all focus our energies there. Become a great composer, be a nice, easy to work with person (no bad attitudes!), and cultivate those long-term relationships and you can have a career. I think it's a great idea in principle. If I'm shopping for a doctor, would I look for a cheap doctor that bought his degree at Costco? Even attorneys have to pass a rigorous test before they can hang up their shingle as a lawyer. But unfortunately, where it breaks down is that no one cares if a composer has a degree or not. Anyone can call themselves a composer and even if they're great, if they're at the bottom of the food chain, they'll do anything to get "in".It's a crazy world.More coffee! Mazz

[ggalen]

It's more useful to think of it like an open air market; a bazaar.Composers have stalls where they offer their services; media producers walk by listen at each stall, and ask the price.And then comes the bargaining.It's a market.And the number of stalls is now HUGE. It stretches off for a couple of miles now. And more people are setting up new stalls every day. Most of those stalls have average to mediocre music. They are new to this. But more and more producers are just fine with that if it's cheap, or free.

[mazz]

The producers and libraries I want to work with are extremely picky. They want high quality because they get great placements and their reputations depend on sending over only the best. There certainly is a market for mediocrity, but I personally don't want to live there.

[BraveNote]

Yeah, I'll take another cup too. "As in any service business, relationships are more valuable than money."What came first, the chicken or the egg? I think you'd get a 50/50 show of hands on this one Mazz. This statement is certainly not coming from a heartless corporate type entrepreneur. It's coming from a compassionate, deep-thinking romantic. This business is only half built by individuals like you (and me).In order to earn the business community's trust, I need to produce great music, on target and on time and be reliable with that. As far as "relationships" go, it's strictly business. Why should I care if you're a nice guy when I have mortgage payments to make and your material is going to help get that payment made? The choice is made. Done deal. I can see the $$$$cha-ching even before I get a chance to know your demeanor. It's a lot easier to drop a client who you never really got to know, for someone who can get the job done cheaper and faster than it is to say good by to a long and faithful friendship. It's no wonder we know so little about our screeners.

[mazz]

The reason we know so little about our screeners is because of loose cannon types that took returns WAY too personally. But we've been down that road before as well.Well, I still believe, in my airy fairy Utopian way, that you attract more bees with honey. If a client has a choice to start a new relationship with 2 equally great composers, one who is a nice guy and the other is a grumpy, jaded, rude person, and they could only choose one, who would you think they would choose to work with? And why does "business" have to be impersonal and cold and only about money? Business is about connecting with people and creating networks so more money can be made, but the money follows the people and the networks. A positive relationship opens a lot of doors beyond just the primary one. An excellent referral is a fantastic opportunity. I wouldn't refer someone who is a jerk just because they are a great composer, because it reflects back on me. There's plenty of great music out there, but a jerk leaves a lasting impression long after the project is over.But that's just my naive view of things.Mazz