What makes a sound or rhythm sound dated.....or TIMELESS?

[tomaragon]

Thoughts?

[Kolstad]

You know if you look close enough on something you will, at inner deepest level, find nothing. Absolutely nothing. Atoms are empty at the core. While I'm no nuclear physicist, I think this applies in other aspects of the world as well. I don't believe there's anything objective you can say about timeless and dated in a sound or rhythm, because it just to narrow a focus on music.

If you zoom out just a notch to the level of melody construction and arrangements, Robin Frederick has a number of great observations in her books based on extensive research and analysis, I think.

Personally, I was preparing to wite one for the latest Taxi 3.15.11 opportunity in the mailbox, 5 songs needed for BIG Hollywood feature film, and I checked out Train's most succesful songs. How much I do love Train's songs, what I noticed (this time) was the abscence of guitar features. Allthough a rhythm Uke is featured, there were absolutely no guitar riffs nor solos, and just a few spots with arpeggiated electric guitars.

Soo, right at this moment sadly, I'm thinking.. GUITARS will make your arrangement sound dated (even though I know it's not all true)..

Probably not of much help, but I guess as a guitarist I'm not much of a "crowd pleaser" these days anyways

[hazineju]

Certain styles of reggae never sound dated to me (i.e Bob Marley's Legend album)

Synths and other electronic elements seem to go in and out very quickly to me

[byllsong]

On another note Tom,
I heard one of your pieces on Live365 Whisperings the other day.
Nice.

[matto]

I think the hipper, trendier, "of the moment" and overused a sound or rhythm is, the more dated will it sound a few years later.

Examples would include the Phil Collins gated drums, DX7 electric piano, D-50 Digital Native Dance sound, 70s disco beat, and, in a few years, "autotuned" T Pain style vocals.
Of course a few decades later, those dated sounds may all of a sudden become hip again, as evidenced by 808 and 909 drums sounds among many other examples.

The more organic, unprocessed or unobtrusive a sound, the less will it be associated with a particular time period, and the more timeless will it usually sound.
Examples would include acoustic guitar and piano above all. In rhythms it's similar, simple organic beats rarely are too much in or out of fashion, whereas the very specific Reggaeton beat from 3 years ago already sounds dated and is basically no longer in use.

However even organic sounds or beats can become trendy, and later dated, if way overused...in that case it's usually style specific though. For example sax solos in pop songs sound dated these days (because not too long ago there was one in every song ), but that doesn't mean the sax as an instrument sounds dated in every musical style.

matto

[tomaragon]

Great insights................
I appreciate the feedback....

I saw the movie Social Network at the theater and liked the soundtrack ( Which won an Academy award ) by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m80r4mhZ5ak.
I thought the soundtrack worked quite well.
I have since listened to this album on it's own and have really delved into the huge variety of sounds.
There are some of the cheesiest 1st generation computer game sounds coupled with sounds you have never ever heard before which include samples of everyday things warped beyond recognition, as well as tones from some of the most expensive modular synths in the world.

I'm pretty sure (unless specifically requested ) we would get dinged big time for using the same cheesy computer game tones and beat box rhythms because of course they are dated.
The interesting thing about this soundtrack is how the entire collage of sounds do work together to create a particular complex layered mood while appearing deceptively simple on the surface.
Like all things, as Matto so aptly mentioned, things do eventually come back in fashion.


All the same Trent Reznor is known for breaking the rules and apparently he does quite well with that rule.
My 2 cents.

[matto]

Well with movie soundtracks things are a bit different because it is a collaborative effort; no composer, no matter how big, is gonna have free reign to do whatever they wish.

For example, it's quite possible the 'cheesy synth sounds and beat box rhythms' were the idea of the director who may have thought they supported the idea of socially awkward computer geeks.

And then there is, of course, the conundrum that incorporating purposely dated sounds can be hip and contemporary. E.g. Cee Lo Green...

[mojobone]

Great post, Matto! Yeah, I agree that sounds and rhythms get tired from overuse; they can't come back until they're largely forgotten, or until a younger generation hears them with fresh ears. (I'm thinking of starting a Nineties band to get a head start on the nostalgia)

I've been working on an update of a Conway Twitty song from the fifties, but it's tough to modernize; the chord progression alone (a variation on what casuals bandleaders call "ice cream" changes) dates it, but maybe losing the cheesy backup vocals and the 16th note triplets on the piano would be a good start.

The more natural and organic sounds tend to be timeless; keyboard sounds, in particular, tend to be technology-driven, but a Hammond through a Leslie, a suitcase Rhodes or Wurlitzer, even Hohner Clavinet, Vox combo organs and Farfisa still seem pretty timeless, just because they've hung around so long. With drums, it's more a matter of treatments; they're drums, you whack 'em, the instrument itself doesn't change all that much, but where you put the mics, which mics, what reverb, how much compression do.

[mazz]

There's a new sub genre of electronic music that I believe is called "Chip tunes" and it uses sounds from old video games as the source sounds. I met a composer at GDC from LA who has a chip tune band, and I don't think he was even born when Pong first came out! I saw more than one game that was a new take on classics like Pong and Asteroids.

I would say acoustic orchestral instruments are timeless, orchestras still play Beethoven and Mozart and film scores and game scores use orchestra music due to it's ability to evoke emotion and the variety of tone color, not to mention the cultural embeddedness of the orchestral sound. There's even fashion in orchestral music too. In Mozart's time, orchestras were smaller than they are today and composers like Beethoven started adding more brass and percussion until you got to Mahler and Wagner with their huge horn sections and much larger string sections, etc. Today lots of film and game scores use expanded brass sections, it seems like a trend. For instance in the score to Inception it sounded like Zimmer had 8 horns going plus several more low brass than would be "normal".

Comparing electronic instruments such as synthesizers with classic electronic instruments like B3 or Wurlitzer it seems that some instruments lend themselves to the player being able to put their stamp on them, particularly something like the B3, whereas a synthesizer doesn't necessarily have a "sound" that can be identified with a certain player. There are notable exceptions like Lyle Mays, Chick Corea of the late 70s and Jan Hammer with Mahavishnu Orchestra, but when was the last time synth solos were in fashion outside of prog rock music?

It's a tough call and a matter of taste and intuition to create something "timeless" from the ground up, since to me, the nature of the word implies some amount of retrospection.

I guess if one is creating pop music of the minute, it's a different asethetic, and only time will tell if it ends up being timeless.

If you live long enough, what was new when you were a kid will come back around again. I hope powder blue leisure suits stay back where they belong, though.

Mazz

[tomaragon]

Thanks to all for taking the time to chime in!