What Track to Lay first

with industry Pro, Nick Batzdorf

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hookstownbrown
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Re: What Track to Lay first

Post by hookstownbrown » Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:59 pm

I like to get a drummer's feel on a song first. I don't like drummers having to sync to a click simply because it takes their live energy out of the track. Drummers are used to providing the groove, I don't like to put the brakes on their energy...

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Re: What Track to Lay first

Post by 53mph » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:21 pm

I'm glad someone else thinks the energy of a perfomance can be affected by the click track.ernstinen.....Let's not get personal. I can play to a click track, that isn't the issue. I just 'personally' think that a "tick, tick, tick" in the ear doesn't help me give the best performance possible. This obviously depends on what music your doing. I'd be interested to know if any Speed Metal bands lay their tracks down to a click

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Re: What Track to Lay first

Post by ernstinen » Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:47 am

Quote:I like to get a drummer's feel on a song first. I don't like drummers having to sync to a click simply because it takes their live energy out of the track. Drummers are used to providing the groove, I don't like to put the brakes on their energy...Absolutely true. And, 53 mph, I wasn't talking to you. Geez, musicians are sensitive! I much prefer playing with a good drummer, but the point is most songwriters don't have that option. They're sequencing drums and keyboards, and tracking guitars and vocals. If you're experienced working with a click, the music can ebb and flow with all the energy and groove in the world! Ask any of my 100's of clients that I've produced song demos for.Just my 2 cents,Ern

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Re: What Track to Lay first

Post by nickbatzdorf » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:33 am

hookstown and 53mph, all good studio drummers have no problem at all grooving like mad to a click. I was at a session where Steve Ferrone asked for the click to be slipped 4 ms - which in case anyone doesn't know is very slight - and you should have heard him.It really depends on the musical context whether the click is inhibiting or not. You don't give it to every string player, for example, because that would be wrong. But it's absolutely no problem for people who get used to it.

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Re: What Track to Lay first

Post by 53mph » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:44 am

Nick,You sound to me like a very experienced studio engineer or musician.I'm not going to disagree with what you say because I'm not in that league.All I'm offering is my limited experience.I've only released 4 singles, 2 of them cut in studios 2 on my home DAW. My experience of working with studio engineers/musicians is limited. For the first single we lay down a basic drum patterns to synch to. This was good for keeping in time but as our band were used to playing in live venues and not studio's the perfomance was stilted, a bit mechanical.For the second single, we rehersed the song as a band and recorded everything as if we were playing live. The perfomances were much better but the timing occasionally went out.None of us are session musicians and for us working without a click worked best to get the energy of a live band on tape.In fact, when our drummer tried playing to a click track he couldn't keep in time with it (he's not a session drummer you see but a musician with a day job who doesn't spend most of his time in recording studios). For me that's the reality.Now when I work on my DAW to write songs as a solo musician, I usually use a click or work to a programmed drum pattern, this way I can call in other musicians if I want to and have no problem synching tacks.I wish I could exchange stories on working with session musicians but on my budget it's usually a case of looking around for musicians that can do the job for free

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Re: What Track to Lay first

Post by ruserious » Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:38 pm

Thanks for all of the helpful advice. I also find it annoying to have the click on during recording. The drum suggestion seemed to work well. I recorded rhythm guitar with a drum track to start. And then went back and recorded seperate rhythm guitar and vocal tracks listening to the first track. I then deleted the first track and rerecorded the drum track using midi drums. I recorded my first successful song using this method and it won track of the day on Garageband. Give it a listen and tell me what you think. http://www.garageband.com/song?|pe1|S8LTM0LdsaSkaFe-amo

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Re: What Track to Lay first

Post by ruserious » Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:39 pm

cut and paste that entire link into your browser to get to the song. For some reason the entire address didn't convert to a hypertext link.

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Re: What Track to Lay first

Post by 53mph » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:40 pm

I loved the lyrics. A very funny twist on a very modern subject The vocal timing could be tightened a bit in places but as a song it works really well.You should try and sell it to a big name country artist. I think you'd make a fortune.Then again....I maybe they'd be too scared to touch this subject By the way, I like your biog.Very modest. I like modest.

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Re: What Track to Lay first

Post by ruserious » Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:52 am

Thanks 53mph. I'm still learning the craft of production through the school of hard knocks. It's clear to me that you have to have an above average demo even if you only want to sell your songs. I'm using Garageband as a test market for my songs. If I get poor scores for production quality it's back to the drawing board. I'm in the process of cleaning up about 6 songs that I'll put on a demo and then join Taxi to see what we can do with them. Again I appreciate everyones help here. Figuring out the timing thing helped me tremendously.

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Re: What Track to Lay first

Post by poetsespresso » Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:24 pm

I'd recommend the main instrument with drums recorded together for the first track. Studio time is expensive so practice extensively beforehand. If you're home studio, then you've got it made except if you have undesirable acoustics. Digital editing can only do so much against a poor acoustic or bad take.
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