Working with another writer

[hummingbird]

Jun 12, 2008, 5:39pm, milfus wrote:ive been working on songs this whole time =0)me too. now we can post a "what I did while participating the 'working with another writer thread' thread

[Mark Kaufman]

Yeah, you can't just keep flexing the same muscle over and over...gotta gab in between takes!

[hummingbird]

Jun 12, 2008, 4:34pm, squids wrote:Nope, sorry. If I do a cowrite, it's a cowrite and that means they'll have input. If I wanna hire someone to work FOR me, it's a work-for-hire. They get paid. Big difference, not only in the way it's delivered but in the eventual outcome financially for us both. If I'm producing a piece that's all mine, i'll do work-for-hire and I'll want the best i can get, it only helps me. If I'm cowriting, I'll also want the same but will also go with my instincts and how their work hits me, all the things we've talked about.Yep, I'd agree with that. Someone earlier on said it's "CO" writing... and that means "Cooperate" and "Collaborate" and that means respecting each other's talent and vision & coming together to create something that you wouldn't have come up with on your own. The other person "sparks" something, "inspires" something, takes you down a path you wouldn't ordinarily go down. That's what makes collabin' so cool, eh? And if we resist that process then there's not much point in collabin' because we're not allowing that inspiration to flow from our partner to us. Least that's how it seems to moi. IMHO, AAT, ETC, & OVT, ha ha

[hummingbird]

Jun 12, 2008, 3:27pm, aubreyz wrote:and btw--- that's why I like hanging around with the likes of you Vikki. You have placements... I don't. I'm looking from down here up to your level thinking... hmmm... now how does she do that AubI did that in many ways, including listening to a lot of feedback given on this board to my & other tunes. I wrote and rewrote and submitted and resubmitted til I cracked the code. 2.5 years of returns from Taxi before I got my first forward, which lead to my first deal.I also did it by having the priviledge of working with people who were/are more experienced than me. They could say "well, she's not at my level, and I only want to write "up"". But they don't. They give me a helping hand and treat my contributions with respect and, by just being themselves and doing what they do well & sharing it with me, they help me move "up".If you want me to try to give you the roadmap for success, I'd say: 1) craft/composition (writing the actual music), 2) tools (system, mics, software, excellent quality sounds), 3) manipulating sound/VIs to sound 'authentic', 4) mixing/producing to broadcast quality, 5) as we so often say, write, submit, write, submit, 6) listening to mentors, listening to music samples, being open to change & growth; and I think, given the title of this thread, 7) working with interesting & inspiring collaborators who are fun and spark ideas. There might be more, but that's what comes to me at this moment in time.

[milfus]

yeah, only thing id add is, stopping to enjoy yourself now and then, just because if it isnt fun, you wont last, you gotta keep your soul in it.

[billg]

I have a writing partner that I've worked with for over 25yrs. We argue & fight so much that we joke about our efforts being a clobberation. He's the only co-writer I'll fight with, only because we've taken so long to develop that kind of relationship. I just have this "life is too short" thing going on to really care too much about fighting about song parts, lyrics, or whatever. If you co-write with someone & it goes smooth & something comes out of it that you both like, well cool, do it again. If on the other hand there is too much stress or too many problems, finish the project, forget about it, & move on. I think I'm lazy.

[squids]

Jun 12, 2008, 6:07pm, hummingbird wrote: I also did it by having the priviledge of working with people who were/are more experienced than me. They could say "well, she's not at my level, and I only want to write "up"". But they don't. They give me a helping hand and treat my contributions with respect and, by just being themselves and doing what they do well & sharing it with me, they help me move "up".A good many writers I consider more experienced and with more placements than me will write with someone who has less of both. It's not mentoring in the truest sense; they hear something good in the work that sparks something in them, as you said up above, something that they want to hear developed. To me, mentoring is what Aub mentioned - really jes giving advice, helping them avoid pitfalls in writing, producing, etc, using private PMs or emails, public posts that support, herd them along at a faster pace than they'd normally go without the advice. But not writing songs together. I think it was Aretha Franklin or Lena Horne (or someone like that) who once said, "always make sure you work with someone who challenges you. Never put your name on shoddy work. Never. Our reputation is all we have." And it really stuck with me. I practice that always. There's a risk involved if you don't. So if someone wants to work with, say, Dave Walton or mazz or matto or even Hans Zimmer, I would guess that's more likely to happen if they've worked their tail off and improved their skills enough to reach these guys' radar. These great guys probably don't have a lotta time to shepherd someone along in a song. I don't think I'd even have the nerve to ask them to work with me, but that's jes me. I don't know their personal philosophy regarding mentoring but I'm guessin' if whoever it is doesn't have something to inspire them and it's a mercy thing, they probably wouldn't do it. I'm jes guessin though! I think inspiration is the key and then can they produce? I mean, if they're the ones doing the music, is it of good quality? Have they put the time in to make those strings sound real? If they're a lyricist, are the lyrics in need of major rewrites in order to be acceptable or are they all finished up or close to it, and are they willing to be flexible?This keeps the bar high, imho. Keeps those less experienced coming back for advice about honing their skills and keeps them focused on their goals so they can reach for cowriters they want to work with in the future when their chops are where they can inspire someone better than they are.I bet that didn't make sense. Neva mind!

[squids]

Jun 13, 2008, 5:33am, billg wrote:I have a writing partner that I've worked with for over 25yrs. We argue & fight so much that we joke about our efforts being a clobberation. He's the only co-writer I'll fight with, only because we've taken so long to develop that kind of relationship. I just have this "life is too short" thing going on to really care too much about fighting about song parts, lyrics, or whatever. If you co-write with someone & it goes smooth & something comes out of it that you both like, well cool, do it again. If on the other hand there is too much stress or too many problems, finish the project, forget about it, & move on. I think I'm lazy.oh, honey, I'm so there with you, it's like we're twins!! II don't mind discussion and q/a but there's only so much time in the world and I don't wanna spend it having endless conversations or arguments about a song. Easier to jes move on and chock it up to experience.

[milfus]

yeah but someone who challenges you isn't directly related with there current skill, in a good collaboration the songs quality should be at the most skilled persons quality, otherwise something went wrong, people can challange you creatively as well, I would personally rather work with someone who made me think and grow than someone I could get a mixing tip from, but then again i have a LOT of mixing tips so I may be biased.

[devin]

Having read what we've posted, I'd now have to summarize rule #1 for me as:If I'm going to invest the time and patience to make the collaboration work, I have to respect the other person's contribution. This would mean that they are stronger in at least one aspect than I am (melody, production, playing chops, enthusiasm, etc), so I feel like I'm "working up" when they take the lead (or when they "fill in the blanks" if I'm the control sort). Simultaneously though, I also have to feel like I'm bringing something significant to the table to feel like I'm contributing, or else I may run the risk of feeling outclassed or a charity project.It's very doubtful I would ask or accept a collab with someone who is noticeably better or worse than I in all apects of the song creation process...that would just be too lopsided an arrangement to call it a collab.If I were paying for help, then I'd expect the hired gun to be noticeably better than I for whatever skill I'm paying for...obviously.