Working with another writer

[jchitty]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:17pm, hurowitz wrote:Jun 12, 2008, 2:03pm, jchitty wrote:Wouldn't it be cool if we were all Samantha Stevens on the old "Bewitched" show? We could just wiggle our noses, and viola, we have a beautifully finished demo, just the way we want it. How come on TV in the 60's, guys were married to drop-dead beautiful women who could do anything for them and they never... well... took advantage of it... In fact they outright demanded no magic... C'mon now... if you were a guy and Barbara Eden could 'blink' you per any wish you had?? And did you ever get a look at the guy's wife on "Mister Ed"? He's got her and he's in the barn with the horse all the time?? It boggles the mind... CaseyLOL.

[aubreyz]

This is a very interesting and informative thread. I've only had one co-write situation that has been both successful and constantly a pleasure. (that's my buddy Ponch for those of you who don't know). One part is that since English is far from his strong point, i always win the lyric battles (actually that's not true, he wins a lot of those battles too, in fact just won one on the song we are writing now )I think the thing that makes this relationship so special (we've written around 30 songs now I think), is the mutual respect. I think he's a better writer than me, and he has said the same- but we both agree that we write better together than alone. Early on we established an informal rule - we keep working until we both agree it's right. There have been times when I thought I was right, but out of respect for his opinion tried something else-- and every time we ended up with something that we both agreed was better.Honestly, the other problems I've had with co-writing boiled down to the fact that i didn't really respect their opinion as much as my own. If you're not writing with a better writer, then why bother? Just write alone. The important thing is "CO". It can't be a lyricist and musician, it has to be 2 peers who have agreed to improve one another's abilities.As I've grown as a writer, I've become less attached to individual ideas, words, melodies, or progressions. They are like Doritos - we'll make more. I remember one song that Ponch wanted to change the arrangement for musical reasons and I had to lose a verse and rework the other verses to make it work. But it turned out better, and I've already used some of those "lost" words again. Same thing has happened the other way, for lyric or hook reasons I want to extend or delete a section and Ponch says..."hmm I don't think so but let's try it". I have to give him credit and permission to challenge my "genius" and visa versa.IMHO co-writing is difficult unless there is an equality between the writers where no single opinion is more valid than agreement. Which, btw, makes the split 50/50 no matter who's doing what. Aub

[liamkelly]

Apologies... I have sped read through this thread so what I say may have already been said Personally, I feel the greatest understanding any team can have is where their and their team-mate's strengths lie. And a songwriting partnership is just another form of team. In cricket (sorry, that's my sport) a batsman may have a few tips for a wicketkeeper, or a bowler for a slip fielder. But a team cannot have 11 bowlers... or wicketkeepers.By the same token, if your real skill in the songwriting partnership is to write melody and design appropriate harmony, well.... you should restrict your comments on lyrics to being tactful. Conversely, imagine a lyricist asking you change your immaculate progression to a I V VIm V because they just didn't get your original melodic idea.As with all partnerships, it's give....and give.... and give... and then maybe a lttle take.2cLiam

[milfus]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:25pm, aubreyz wrote:As I've grown as a writer, I've become less attached to individual ideas, words, melodies, or progressions. They are like Doritos - we'll make more. IMHO co-writing is difficult unless there is an equality between the writers where no single opinion is more valid than agreement. Which, btw, makes the split 50/50 no matter who's doing what. AubI can't agree with you more, its that tortured genius mentality that stuff has to stay exactly that way. If you arent gonna work with someone, why work with someone.

[liamkelly]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:32pm, milfus wrote:I cant agree with that liam, If a lyricist wants to change music, then you change it with them, until it feels right to them, and you are happy with it, same with the lyrics, the mentality of different sides kills songs, you both want to be on the same side.at the end of the day, both names are on it, it represents both of you, both of you should actively want your name on it, if you cant achieve that, you have no buisiness working with people, cause you dont.Milf No argument here, per se I was trying to make the point (maybe poorly) that in songwriting collabs where one is ostensibly a lyricist and one a musician (given, there may be an overlap... even a significant one sometimes) it is probably handy to give in a bit more to the other's expertise.Granted, each should have some say on the other... but, in my very limited experience , partnerships more often break up because they don't fully understand the skills the other brings to the party than for any other reason.A genuine 2c RespectLiam

[aubreyz]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:41pm, hummingbird wrote:Jun 12, 2008, 2:36pm, squids wrote:Everyone has some excellent thoughts here. I especially liked Aub's point that you wanna write with someone who is equal to or betta than you. The key is to keep peddling faster, not to devolve. When it comes to opinions, respect is absolutely important. Especially if you've got the chops and experience to speak confidently about the song. It's not about ramrodding a project, imho, it's about discussion and the free exchange of ideas. Respect will get you there whereas compassion might not.I agree that it's good to write with someone who is "as good as" or "better" than you, for experience. However, someone has to write with people less experienced than they... as surely, the one who is "better" than you is doing? Perhaps they as well would rather work with someone at their level? If we all have that attitude the only people who will write with us are people who are at the same level as us. Personally, I can learn just as much (or perhaps mentor) someone with less experience. Frankly, I think attitude & professionalism & sincere desire to work on craft is more important than "experience".To me "better" does not equal experience. I would gladly write with an inexperienced writer who had great ideas, but just to be frank, I'm such a strong personality in a "writing environment" and so very opinionated that I'd probably unintentionally run all over an inexperienced writer in a co-write situation. Mentoring is a whole 'nother ball of wax. There have been many occasions where I've offered assistance to someone and very seldom ask even for a cut.As far as writing for pleasure... yeah, it would be fun and interesting to write with just about anybody. But this is not a hobby anymore. I'm out to write the best songs I can and want to be pushed. So would i have a better chance of writing a great song with a great writer or with someone learning the ropes? Both have value, but IMHO they are apples and oranges when it comes to the "business" of songwriting. As an analogy, i love talking to people who are just learning the production side of things, answering questions and sharing what I might have learned along the way. And while it's true that even in those conversations I've learned a few things, to me it's more valueable to talk with someone who has more experience than me. (which of course means they have to put up with my relative inexperience ).This same attitude applies in all areas. I like to be around people who are more successful than me. Not that I ignore or shun someone who isn't, mentoring is just as important, it's just a different game.That's one reason why I love this forum. There are those who I strive to reach their level and those who I like to think I might help out a bit along the way. But if I'm in a gunfight, give me somebody who at least can shoot as good as me, and hopefully a lot better It's all about hitting the target!and btw--- that's why I like hanging around with the likes of you Vikki. You have placements... I don't. I'm looking from down here up to your level thinking... hmmm... now how does she do that Aub

[liamkelly]

Jun 12, 2008, 3:08pm, milfus wrote:yeah no doubt, its just like, I have worked with lyricists by the TONS (mainly a rap producer) and like for melody lines and stuff, they will have an idea and be scared to say somethin cause they cant put it to words, and I mean i will go so far as to actually make them hum it out, transcribe and then we can see how it sounds, i didnt mean you as in you, most times when i say you, i mean a global you, I am really tryna get out of that habit. but I mean ultimately, anyone working on a song with me, is kin to me, I will try my hardest to enable them so as much of them as possible can come through, because I mean just because I am music mainly on a project, and they are lyrics, if I have an idea for lines, or I think something needs work, I jump on it, and if they feel that way about my music, I whole heartedly encourage them to do the same, cause people are not songs, there has to be seperation, and the more perspective and appeal it has, the wider the songs appeal upon completion.How can you honestly expect large groups of people to like a song when you cant even get all the creators to like it, just seems unrealistic to me. I believe true art is its own entity that reflects its creators, if you value your ego or contributions above your song, you are doomed to fail, thats why I decided against pre-concieved notions, because if someone emotionally invests in half a song, they deserve half a song, not budging on it just means you refuse to let it grow into what it should be. Where as say if me and you sat down, and talked out an idea, then both of us planted that seed, we both want it to grow, and we both shape it into what we are both really proud of, instead of insisting half of it has to be a certain shape, theres no synergy you know.Milf Let me first say it's so good to have you back here ... Additionally, let me say that am being totally honest when I tell you that I have a lot to learn from you musically But I wonder if you're not missing my point a bit in this thread. Respectfully.How can you honestly expect large groups of people to like a song when you cant even get all the creators to like itI'm not saying that the creators don't like it just because they have to give and take a bit (and then, ergo, the public don't like it). I am just saying that different people in a songwriting team have had to give (more than they've wanted to) to their songwriting partners for the greater good. And if they did (Lennon/McCartney, Hewson/Evans) everyone was better off.But I totally get your 'respect for all components thing'. Just not totally

[aubreyz]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:49pm, liamkelly wrote:Jun 12, 2008, 2:32pm, milfus wrote:I cant agree with that liam, If a lyricist wants to change music, then you change it with them, until it feels right to them, and you are happy with it, same with the lyrics, the mentality of different sides kills songs, you both want to be on the same side.at the end of the day, both names are on it, it represents both of you, both of you should actively want your name on it, if you cant achieve that, you have no buisiness working with people, cause you dont.Milf No argument here, per se I was trying to make the point (maybe poorly) that in songwriting collabs where one is ostensibly a lyricist and one a musician (given, there may be an overlap... even a significant one sometimes) it is probably handy to give in a bit more to the other's expertise.Granted, each should have some say on the other... but, in my very limited experience , partnerships more often break up because they don't fully understand the skills the other brings to the party than for any other reason.A genuine 2c RespectLiamLiam,That's a good point, but I also think that it can come down to respecting the other's opinion. Even if one has more skill in an area than another, both should know when something works or not. There's a producer I know who does mostly tv spots, he knows little about audio or music. There have been times when I thought I nailed it and he couldn't quite put into words why he didn't think it worked, but i respect him enough to keep trying until it does. Unfortunately he doesn't give me that same respect, it's either his way or no way-- so I wouldn't be working with him at all unless he's paying the bills Aub

[aubreyz]

Jun 12, 2008, 3:37pm, milfus wrote:see I have found that anymore, its impossible to gauge someones actual "level", ...Hmm. I don't think it's that tough. If I'm impressed by what i hear or read, that's a "level". Not that my opinion or level is all that grand, but it's mine and has to be the foundation that I go by. I really don't give a flip about what somebody says about someone or even their "success" when it comes to creativity. There are a lot of people on the charts that I wouldn't beat anybody's door down to write with (though I'd probably do it in a heartbeat if offered) And now I need to quit posting about co-writing and go finish some up Aub

[liamkelly]

Jun 12, 2008, 3:38pm, aubreyz wrote:Jun 12, 2008, 2:49pm, liamkelly wrote:Milf No argument here, per se I was trying to make the point (maybe poorly) that in songwriting collabs where one is ostensibly a lyricist and one a musician (given, there may be an overlap... even a significant one sometimes) it is probably handy to give in a bit more to the other's expertise.Granted, each should have some say on the other... but, in my very limited experience , partnerships more often break up because they don't fully understand the skills the other brings to the party than for any other reason.A genuine 2c RespectLiamLiam,That's a good point, but I also think that it can come down to respecting the other's opinion. Even if one has more skill in an area than another, both should know when something works or not. There's a producer I know who does mostly tv spots, he knows little about audio or music. There have been times when I thought I nailed it and he couldn't quite put into words why he didn't think it worked, but i respect him enough to keep trying until it does. Unfortunately he doesn't give me that same respect, it's either his way or no way-- so I wouldn't be working with him at all unless he's paying the bills AubAubGood reply And it, in fact, endorses exactly what I am trying to say. Because it's all about respect. Something that the producer, you're referring to, didn't have. If he'd had more respect for what you were bringing to the table, then you wouldn't've had a problem.And respect for each other's skills (in other words, identifying what the other party's better at... and giving in A BIT to it) is exactly my point.Liam