WSJ article -- "...music industry faces pressure to revamp"

[mojobone]

Civics education didn't stop in 1970; at least not everywhere, all at once. Well they traded "Civics" for what was then called "Social Studies", but we learned about the Nazis from Mr. Sladeski who'd emigrated from Poland after the war and also told so many Polack jokes he'd be out of a job today, were he not long since retired; we learned about Castro and communism from our Spanish teacher who came over from Cuba in a rowboat.

[lgstarr]

This article agrees with you about civics.
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... ed/507293/

It's probably less to do with teaching civics than the trend away from a liberal education towards more of a "professional" or job oriented education. In the suburbs where I live, school bonds usually always pass, they are always willing to spend on buildings and infrastructure, never on teachers (exception; coaches) or books.

To be fair, the public schools probably shy too much away from controversy. http://www.thv11.com/news/local/ark-bil ... /419912844
Not to mention evolution, sex education, or any other "controversial" subject. Personally, I don't think the public schools should be run like a madrassa,lol!

https://www.democracynow.org/2013/3/25/ ... s_his_work
Can you even imagine Marxist economics being taught in public schools or universities? It's not like economics is religious, or is it,lol? Can you even imagine Marxist Home Economics in high school?

Our heritage, founding documents, founding principles, founding fathers, is fine as long as they are studied for what they are or were, without myth. One of my favorites is our "Christian heritage", though how many Christian's are okay with deists, and how many agree with "The Jefferson Bible"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#Dei ... ted_States

Nice try, but the Atlantic article never once mentioned that America is a Constitutional Republic.

Has The Department of Education (signed into law by Jimmy Carter in 1979) made things better?

Can't stand Zinn. So glad Rush Limbaugh's American history children's series is so popular.

I had a Marxist history teacher at the University of Hawaii in the 1960's.

[Len911]

I don't know, I graduated in 1979.

[lgstarr]

I don't know, I graduated in 1979.

https://fee.org/articles/7-ways-the-dep ... ege-worse/

[Len911]

I don't know, I graduated in 1979.

https://fee.org/articles/7-ways-the-dep ... ege-worse/

If you look at the mission statement and it's budget, it's really difficult to see how it has made college worse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... _Education
I suspect the controversy lies in the civil rights protection and assistance programs. Like any other program, it's only effective as the funding and power it is given. How do you kill something? You don't properly fund it for the task it is suppose to accomplish, and then take away any authority it has for enforcement, and then claim it to be a failure,lol!

In 1978, the year before the Department’s creation, only one million student loans were made totaling under $2 billion — less than 5 percent the current level of lending even allowing for inflation.College costs remained remarkably stable. Tuition fees typically rose only about one percent a year, adjusting for inflation. At the same time, high economic growth (real GDP was rising nearly four percent annually) led to incomes rising even faster, so in most years the tuition to income ratio fell.In other words, college was becoming a smaller financial burden for families.

Yes GDP rose, but it didn't lead to incomes rising even faster, in fact they were stagnant.
https://aneconomicsense.org/2015/02/13/ ... e-factors/

First, of course, education costs have soared. Tuition fees rose more than three percent a year in inflation-adjusted terms, far faster than people’s incomes. As new research from the New York Federal Reserve Bank demonstrates, rising federal student financial aid programs are the primary factor in this phenomenon.If tuition fees had risen as fast after 1978 as in the four decades before, they would be about one-half the level they are today, and the student debt crisis would not have occurred.

Naturally, the more money available through either loans or grants is going to attract capitalism like sharks to blood in the water,lol! For profit colleges. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/ ... it-schools
Maybe the story of for-profit colleges vs. traditional colleges should be an example of how capitalism works and socialism doesn't??

Where's the corporate responsibility and participation? Isn't that who benefits the most from education? It seems the trend is to waive their property (school) taxes for sometimes a decade or more to entice them to come to a community to create "jobs". I suppose that means that the "jobs created", the employees will pay the taxes?? Many have left the country to exploit low wages and low taxes, or you could say to wherever they are subsidized.

The real divide between so called liberals and conservatives in the U.S. is about power, class, and who gets what and how much. If it was really about the economy you'd give more to the poor, they will spend it and not hoard it, benefiting everyone, creating more jobs, more taxes and more profits. A no-brainer unless you like a caste system.

[lgstarr]

I don't know, I graduated in 1979.

https://fee.org/articles/7-ways-the-dep ... ege-worse/

If you look at the mission statement and it's budget, it's really difficult to see how it has made college worse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... _Education
I suspect the controversy lies in the civil rights protection and assistance programs. Like any other program, it's only effective as the funding and power it is given. How do you kill something? You don't properly fund it for the task it is suppose to accomplish, and then take away any authority it has for enforcement, and then claim it to be a failure,lol!

You're saying a lack of funding caused it to fail,,,so you agree that it failed. BTW, a "mission statement" and a "budget" from Wikipedia is not Congressional reality or an actual funding/budget history.

In 1978, the year before the Department’s creation, only one million student loans were made totaling under $2 billion — less than 5 percent the current level of lending even allowing for inflation.College costs remained remarkably stable. Tuition fees typically rose only about one percent a year, adjusting for inflation. At the same time, high economic growth (real GDP was rising nearly four percent annually) led to incomes rising even faster, so in most years the tuition to income ratio fell.In other words, college was becoming a smaller financial burden for families.

Yes GDP rose, but it didn't lead to incomes rising even faster, in fact they were stagnant.
https://aneconomicsense.org/2015/02/13/ ... e-factors/

Your article confirms my article's data:
"D. Summary
To summarize, in the post-war period from 1947 to about the mid-1970s, measures of real income per person grew substantially and at similar rates. Since then, real GDP per capita continued to grow at about the same pace as it had before, but others fell back. The median real wage has been stagnant."

First, of course, education costs have soared. Tuition fees rose more than three percent a year in inflation-adjusted terms, far faster than people’s incomes. As new research from the New York Federal Reserve Bank demonstrates, rising federal student financial aid programs are the primary factor in this phenomenon.If tuition fees had risen as fast after 1978 as in the four decades before, they would be about one-half the level they are today, and the student debt crisis would not have occurred.

Naturally, the more money available through either loans or grants is going to attract capitalism like sharks to blood in the water,lol!

OK, so we know you are against loans and/or grants.

For profit colleges. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/ ... it-schools
Maybe the story of for-profit colleges vs. traditional colleges should be an example of how capitalism works and socialism doesn't??

Where's the corporate responsibility and participation? Isn't that who benefits the most from education? It seems the trend is to waive their property (school) taxes for sometimes a decade or more to entice them to come to a community to create "jobs". I suppose that means that the "jobs created", the employees will pay the taxes?? Many have left the country to exploit low wages and low taxes, or you could say to wherever they are subsidized.

I have no idea wtf you are talking about now.

The real divide between so called liberals and conservatives in the U.S. is about power, class, and who gets what and how much. If it was really about the economy you'd give more to the poor, they will spend it and not hoard it, benefiting everyone, creating more jobs, more taxes and more profits. A no-brainer unless you like a caste system.

Gee, so conservatives are mean and liberals are not...sorry I can't rise to your hifalutin' Vallhalla-esque level...I'm just a songwriter!

[Len911]

Your article confirms my article's data:
"D. Summary
To summarize, in the post-war period from 1947 to about the mid-1970s, measures of real income per person grew substantially and at similar rates.

The article is starting at 1978, then says "at the same time", and then proposes that college was becoming more affordable. The mid-1970's onward, real income was on the decline, therefore making college less affordable.

OK, so we know you are against loans and/or grants.

Good point, maybe so, I never really thought about it,lol! Some people do claim the financial debacles of Greece and now the bankruptcy of Puerto Rico, might have been spurred on by encouragement and dealings with Wall Street investment firms,lol!
https://qz.com/707165/wall-streets-vult ... l-economy/

I have no idea wtf you are talking about now.

ok

Gee, so conservatives are mean and liberals are not...sorry I can't rise to your hifalutin' Vallhalla-esque level...I'm just a songwriter!

You reminded me of Robert Fuller's book on what he calls rankism. The somebodies and the nobodies. It's probably a better representation than caste. Especially since caste has almost no mobility between the groups, and rankism it's possible to change ranks. Conservatives are mean? No, just more into rankism.
https://youtu.be/djM6cZb8kak

[lgstarr]

Your article confirms my article's data:
"D. Summary
To summarize, in the post-war period from 1947 to about the mid-1970s, measures of real income per person grew substantially and at similar rates.

The article is starting at 1978, then says "at the same time", and then proposes that college was becoming more affordable. The mid-1970's onward, real income was on the decline, therefore making college less affordable.

OK, so we know you are against loans and/or grants.

Good point, maybe so, I never really thought about it,lol! Some people do claim the financial debacles of Greece and now the bankruptcy of Puerto Rico, might have been spurred on by encouragement and dealings with Wall Street investment firms,lol!
https://qz.com/707165/wall-streets-vult ... l-economy/

I have no idea wtf you are talking about now.

ok

Gee, so conservatives are mean and liberals are not...sorry I can't rise to your hifalutin' Vallhalla-esque level...I'm just a songwriter!

You reminded me of Robert Fuller's book on what he calls rankism. The somebodies and the nobodies. It's probably a better representation than caste. Especially since caste has almost no mobility between the groups, and rankism it's possible to change ranks. Conservatives are mean? No, just more into rankism.
https://youtu.be/djM6cZb8kak

The article is discussing this period overall (not just 1978):

The 30 years between 1950 and 1980 were the Golden Age of American higher education. The proportion of adult Americans with college degrees nearly tripled, going from 6 to 17 percent. Enrollments quintupled, going from 2.3 to 12.1 million.

By the end of the period, the number of doctorates awarded in engineering had quintupled and over 40 percent of Nobel Prizes were going to individuals associated with American universities.

This was the era in which higher education went from serving the elite and mostly well-to-do to serving many individuals from modest economic circumstance. State government support for higher education rose dramatically — spending per student rose roughly 70 percent after inflation.

[mojobone]

Yep, from 1950 to 1980 was also the golden age of real income growth for working Americans, peaking around 1978 when I entered the workforce. Most of that work was in manufacturing and most of that manufacturing centered around the Great Lakes region now known as the Rust Belt. Not to give an economic sermon, but after the war we were the only major industrial country with manufacturing capacity and infrastructure wholly intact, so for that period we weren't just the world's breadbasket, we were also its Sears & Roebuck. We built everything here, and under the Marshall Plan we re-built Europe and Asia so well, today they can compete with us, driving down wages. Or maybe you thought it was the Mexicans, and it is, but it's the ones that stayed home, not our immigrants, who legally or otherwise compete economically with each other, not us citizens. That's globalization and it's one of the reasons higher education has become more widespread and yet less affordable, but there are others.

Yes, there's been a huge expansion in the percentage of the workforce with a degree, and the glut , among other factors, has created a situation where adjunct professors are paid starvation wages while tuition and salaries for college presidents, provosts and whatnot skyrocket, big universities have been on decades-long building sprees, yet the value of higher education has plummeted through grade inflation and other factors, to a point where a masters in English Lit means you can be an assistant playground monitor at a grade school or maybe work at Starbucks. By my calculation, college affordability probably peaked during the Clinton administration when they revamped what was formerly known as the GI Bill. The decline in the value of a bachelor's degree started right around then, too.

[lgstarr]

Twilight of the rock gods, age of rock and roll is over.

Maybe it's the twilight of capitalism in rock and roll, and the new age of socialized rock and roll,lol!

Except for this little wrinkle:
http://www.spin.com/2014/06/list-wester ... iet-union/