Yamaha NS-10s; Buyer Be Aware

[mojobone]

Don't get me wrong, Yamaha's once-ubiquitous NS-10 bookshelf speaker still does what it always did; reveal critical flaws in the midrange of your mixes, but before you plunk down your hard-earned cash, you should be aware of their strengths and weaknesses.

For starters, their time-domain accuracy is great, even by modern standards, and having zero "bass-reflex" ports, they obviously don't have port ringing or low-frequency overshoot, and are accurate in the frequencies they represent, almost to a fault, but...try and find parts if you blow a component, and that can happen, because they're passive and therefore require a power amp, and amps that can clearly and cleanly drive them to recommended monitoring levels are not cheap, and even the most expensive amps you can pair them with are not optimized to reveal flaws in your mix, they're designed to hide them. Also, while their temporal accuracy is excellent, there are far better options when it comes to frequency response, because there's a dip in the NS-10s lower mids that corresponds almost exactly with the first reflection off a large-format mixing console.

This means that if your NS-10s don't sit horizontally on the meter bridge of said huge console, you will not realize all the vaunted aural benefits these vintage jewels are capable of, but let's discuss what they can't do, which is reveal what's happening down low, in the booty-shaking frequencies that matter most in hiphop and EDM. Sure, many of our end-users will hear us over band-limited TV speakers, but that ain't everybody.

Since you care, (you've read this far, right?) here's a fairly comprehensive article with loads of links (even some sidebars) with the lowdown on all things NS-10: http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-ns10-story

If you know 'em and you love 'em and you need 'em, there's nothing wrong with that, but they're not something I'd pick to learn on; we have some way better options, these days.



P.S. I'm aware that this is more properly a subject for the recording & production forum, but misinformation and hyperbole on this subject are so widespread, I felt the need to post this where nearly all will see.

[Len911]

For Sale- 2 Yamaha NS-10M Studio (made to lay horizontal) and Yamaha P2100

but let's discuss what they can't do, which is reveal what's happening down low, in the booty-shaking frequencies that matter most in hiphop and EDM.

of course not, that's not their purpose. But neither would you use sub woofers to hear what was happening on smart phones, or computers, or tv's, you would more than likely use the ns10's, to figure out what your edm sounds like on these consumer devices. The ns10's would be worthless for hearing what your edm sounds like in a club. The purpose of a reference is to give you an idea of what your material sounds like over the broadest number of applications so you don't have to buy a half a dozen reference systems, however today with edm for example, you probably need that extra reference if you do that sort of work. Otoh, if all you have is the best and widest range monitor system available, you won't have an accurate picture of what it sounds like on all equipment, such as the consumer devices.

The NS10's got a reputation for being the "standard" reference monitor because they had the reputation of whatever sounded good on them would sound good on any system available at the time, not because they sounded good themselves. That's the purpose of a reference monitor. I don't know, but it could be that their reputation has been superceded by something else. Technically, as long as you could hear everything, a person could probably "learn" whatever monitor they have to make the same determination, you might have to make a little more effort and research, but it's possible.

[mojobone]

Right, Len; the room you're in is maybe more important than which speakers. In all but the most ideal circumstances, and probably even then, you have to learn the speakers and the room, in order to get your mix to translate to all the other speakers/rooms. The key is the phrase, "at the time".

[funsongs]

A non-techy approach: if I A/B compare my mix to a hit song that has great (high-dollar) production... on whatever speakers... it's likely gonna sound good on most other devices.
That's about a penny's-worth, eh?

[mojobone]

A non-techy approach: if I A/B compare my mix to a hit song that has great (high-dollar) production... on whatever speakers... it's likely gonna sound good on most other devices.
That's about a penny's-worth, eh?

Given you're in the same room with the same speakers, that's exactly right, which is why we ALL say references are how you triangulate toward a mix that fits everybody.

[guscave]

A non-techy approach: if I A/B compare my mix to a hit song that has great (high-dollar) production... on whatever speakers... it's likely gonna sound good on most other devices.
That's about a penny's-worth, eh?

Given you're in the same room with the same speakers, that's exactly right, which is why we ALL say references are how you triangulate toward a mix that fits everybody.

I would also add to reference the mix in a different room or environment that you're familiar with (ex: car, home stereo, boom box etc).

[stevetwosheds]

I'm almost embarrassed and frustrated to admit I've never even HEARD Ns10's despite loving my NS40's - which, ironically, hardly anyone else appears to have heard.

I've always wanted to hear NS10's, of course, wanted to compare to NS40's (which basically look a bit like twin woofer NS10's, with a mid and tweeter between the white cones - sealed cabinets) I love em and I probably couldn't care less if someone pointed out some major flaw they may or may not have - they're the ONLY speaker I've instantly wanted to marry - Love at first sight/sound.

Basically - I PLANNED on buying a pair of NS10's when I got a small inheritance a few years ago - But I got carried away, first with a pair of NS1000's with the berylium dome mids - Absolutely loved those back breaking monsters but had to sell to help a friend in more need than me a year later...Bugger.

Then these Ns40's came up, couldn;t find much info on em, so just TOOK A GAMBLE figuring I could sell if yet another disappointment, but still INTENDING to buy NS10's.

First time in 20 years that I IMMEDIATELY knew I could live with these for life - and I'd only hooked up one speaker temporarily, yet it just sounded THERE - if you know what I mean??? Everything just sounded NATURAL, real, actually THERE in front of me. I couldn't explain WHY. So I simply forgot all about NS10's, TOTALLY happy with the 40's.

(Hey, don;t buy a pair on my recommendation - I've heard one or two since complaining that they sound "papery" - whatever that means - I couldn't give a hoot - I'm only speaking for myself)

I had tried a pair of the modern Yamaha NS10 lookalike things for a couple of years, the powered monitors, and yeah, i liked them but was never actually "IN LOVE" with them - always something false sounding in EVERY speaker I ever tried, although mostly were really Hi Fi speakers, Tannoy's, B&W's, B&O, a single genelec (all I could afford - hard to judge with just one!) - Some of the best, cheap combo's I came up with were actually PA speakers (mainly because it LOOKED cool having a kilowatt PA system in your living room!)

Even though I'm a KINDA technical guy, an ex electrician, reasonably familiar with AC & all the polyphase ways of thinking about waves, I never REALLY understand speaker talk - unless you can afford to buy and TRY all the speakers you read about, it's just deeply frustrating simply IMAGINING what people mean when they try to describe all the nuances.

For a while I was convinced it was the heavily soundproofed and damped room I finally got round to "building" making me so happy with my monitor sound (at last!) - But two years later I was forced to demolish it by local housing officers and fire brigade and even though I now HATE the boxy room sound, a bit reverby, I still love my NS40's

I just have absolutely NO idea whether they compare even remotely to NS10's though. I'm curious but not really bothered - They'll do me now. They only one's I do miss are those NS1000's but there was something ODD about the sound, even so - took a bit of getting used to. I HATE it when they give you pots to turn the mids and highs up and down because I can never decide how to set them.

..........................

I am also embarrassed to confess that I am quite ignorant too regarding which AMP I used to drive any kind of speaker - although I've had expensive amps I've always sold them, partly through being poor but also because I could barely tell the difference between those and some cheap Hi Fi amp set reasonably flat - Maybe I'm just a deaf old f*cker!

My ONLY worry is the day one of these cheap tranny amps goes bad and puts about 50VDC across my lovely NS40's then I will cry like a baby as the voice coils smoke. How much do I trust those fuses? Not a lot. A valve / tube amp would be lovely - something to keep my hands warm. You couldn't GIVE them away in the 80's !!! I can't help tinkering though, electrocuting myself now and then - scary things for a blind old idiot like me to be playing around with. Yeah, they DO hold a massive charge for ages.

More waffling, "during the war..." style!

Anyone else like Ns40's? NS1000's? How DO they compare to NS10's?

Cheers - Steve

[Len911]

Steve, I would say Mojo did a very good job describing them.

As a hi-fi speaker like they started out, I would say they were better suited for a bookshelf speaker or one you would sit close to and not one for cranking up the volume to fill a room, the bass handling would suck and they would sound boxy. I suppose back in the day most speakers were probably designed to enhance the musicality, and the ns10 was probably better suited to listening to books on tape. (the mid-range factor). But back in the day, they didn't have anything designed as "reference monitors". And also the first reference monitors were nearfield. Now they probably have monitors for acoustically treated rooms that you can crank up, I don't know, never shopped for any.

A valve / tube amp would be lovely - something to keep my hands warm. You couldn't GIVE them away in the 80's !!!

When tubes were originally used, engineers tried to design transparent, clean amps, then equipment was designed to imitate the tube distortion or what they once considered the bad characteristics of them. Imo, it's best that the recording process should arrive at the sound, and that the stereo system for listening should be as clean and transparent as possible for playback.

The most important thing about "reference monitors" that people keep forgetting, is that it doesn't matter what they "sound" like, you don't audition them against other speakers. It's their reputation for allowing one to create the best mix that translates well universally on the most diverse playback devices. The reputation, because you can't possibly audition but a small percentage of all the halls, hifi stereo, lofi computer, boombox, car stereo systems.
If one really understood that, there really wouldn't be any reason to listen to a mix on their car stereo, their friends stereo system, etc., then pulling their hair out because the mix sounded great on their monitors, but then really crappy on their car stereo,lol!

[mojobone]

Hm. That's a little confusing. We've had "hi-fi" home stereo speakers for longer than anything we'd call a 'reference monitor' these days. The words 'high fidelity' imply accuracy, which is what we'd like from a reference monitor, but since hi-fi speakers (and amps) were produced for upscale homes and bachelor pads, there was a conflict; audiophiles who were outspending 90% of the market wanted their music to sound awesome, so they could impress their friends, and really, really accurate speakers tend to be very revealing of flaws in recorded media, and particularly in the sensitive midrange. Hence the manufacturers eventually began building a smiley-curve into their speakers, emphasizing extended frequency range at the expense of those critical midrange frequencies.

In the early days, there were no monitors worth the name, because there wasn't much to mix, what with one microphone and one track, and nobody had invented an equalizer, nor for that matter, tweeters or crossovers; Sun Records had a single 12" full range woofer in a box on the wall, driven by a tube amp.(I don't recall if it was a Bogen or an RCA, but it mighta been homebrew, as most of the early stuff was-you couldn't just buy off-the shelf components, back then, other than just the raw speakers, tubes and transformers. If you had a console, it had two or three inputs and later, a switch for assigning each to left, center or right and they were all handbuilt.

The earliest purpose-built reference monitors were midfields; they came along in the mid-sixties and were made from re-purposed movie-theater speaker components made by Altec-Lansing, usually soffit-mounted so as not to take up space where they could put a piano or upright bass. They were pretty much the only thing you could buy that could be driven to significantly more than 85dB. As rock bands with amplified instruments became more common, higher monitor levels followed.

Not long after, the same Voice Of The Theater bins were put to work by the Grateful Dead and the Allman Brothers for use at big outdoor festivals. Most consoles were still custom built, but they had a few more bells and whistles like panning, basic EQ and sometimes compression, but the nearfield concept didn't really begin until after the NS 10s showed up; their unpopularity with music snobs meant they were cheap and they hit right at the moment when independent producers and rock stars with basic home recording setups started to be a thing. If you had to mix in someone else's room, you could take the NS 10s with you and if the room wasn't the greatest, it didn't matter, because when placed on the meter bridge you heard way more speaker than room. They worked brilliantly, but that was mostly accident; speakers designed for nearfield monitoring didn't come along for another generation.