Yamaha NS-40's / NS-1000's - How do they compare to NS-10's?

[stevetwosheds]

I've just replied to Mojo's post about NS-10's, hoping there might be someone else out there using the less well known NS40's which I love, but never having heard NS10's to compare to. So I'm just CURIOUS - no intention of changing now I'm happy.

But I'm unlikely to find anyone with NS 40's without a specific post on the matter - so here it is. Had to sell the NS1000's for a needy friend and I know a lot of people rave about those - but the 40's seem FAIRLY unusual for some reason, so not much on them out there.

The only definite good point in their favour I ever read was a comment from some classical producer saying they were a God-send and natural to his ears too - so perhaps I'm not so deaf after all -

but other people have whinged that they sound "papery" (Hmm, presumably when they realized the cones were made of paper - the same people reckoned plastic cones sounded plasticy and metal ones sounded metallic - Let me guess... if they made a speaker out of dried fruit they'd say it sounded fruity? - cause we all know what fruit sounds like - and paper)

Anyway - just curious - personally I loved them the moment I briefly connected just one - it felt like there was a person right THERE in the speaker, not enhanced in any way. Took me 20 years to find a speaker I like this much, albeit mostly mid priced Hi Fi speakers.

Thanks for reading - Steve

PS... NO-ONE LOVE THAT WATERGATAN "STEAMPUNK" MARBLE MACHINE I posted about? Wow - I thought it was AMAZING - Maybe it's a quirky European thing then - They featured another (made up) swedish instrument on the Eurovision song contest last year, so this one made me laugh - they DO love their unusual instruments, the Swedes - Well, they've got a lot more wood to play with haven't they?

[mojobone]

I'm across the Wabash from Purdue University, host of the annual Rube Goldberg challenge; I've seen literally hundreds of overly complex machines built to perform simple, common tasks, so I maybe don't get as excited about that sort of thing. Most folks buy speakers maybe thrice in a lifetime, so your question might be better asked at gearslutz, where you can find an opinion on almost anything.

[Len911]

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much ... ns40m.html

It's odd they have 2 woofers. Unplug one of them and keep for a spare??

here's another piece I found
http://recording.org/threads/yamaha-ns4 ... urt.16199/

[mojobone]

I haven't seen or heard NS40s, so I have no opinion on 'em. There's been an uptick in studio monitors in MTM configuration, lately, and it's said they have a wider sweet spot. ATC, Focal and Presonus all make at least one model, but I don't theenk Yamaha ever did.

http://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/115/eris ... e-monitor/

and here's a link to the tutorial mentioned in the previous link: http://www-media-presonus.netdna-ssl.co ... -22-15.pdf

[stevetwosheds]

Thanks for all the helpful and interesting info and comments folks - I did start writing one of my usual epic meandering replies but it bored me to tears reading back my own words so I thought I;d spare you that and start again when I might be able to be a bit more concise.

I'm just in the process of enjoying reading some SOS detailed explanation of what TIME DOMAIN ACCURACY actually means because I have to confess I've been woefully ignorant of some expressions but it is finally making a lot of sense - I feel a bit like I am going back to school but I doubt I would pass any exams in the subject. I will be happy if I simply finally UNDERSTAND for my own purposes, why so many speakers sound so different when they are mostly essentially the same at a glance - or why any of it matters for recording and mixing purposes. It's coming as a shock to realise that a flat frequency response ISN'T as important as the time domain "thingy!" (I'll get the hang of the language eventually!) - which makes me wonder why I've wasted a lot of life trying to achieve the flattest frequency response in the past - stopped worrying about it a long time ago anyway.

But it DOES make sense that we don't want the fundamental of a low pitched instrument to arrive too many ms AFTER the 2nd harmonic - if I'm not misunderstanding the issue.

And I'm fascinated to learn that the NS10/40 white cones have some advantage in that they are rolled into shape and glued down a seam rather than moulded - Who'd have thought.

Len, I don;t think I'll be disconnecting a woofer even though I;m curious, because I don;t trust myself to put it back together without causing any mysterious rattles or losing screws etc. I'm bone idle that way. For once in my life I'll resist tinkering! I can't see it sounding anything like an NS10 by that means anyway, if that was your thinking (probably not) because of the completely different tweeter/mid, and crossover, and cabinet dimensions, plus the disconnected woofer would be in effect a huge port, albeit a damped one - I can imagine it sounding odd.

I don;t know if this makes sense (re NS 40 MTM arrangement) but I always get the feeling I;m listening to a dual concentric, ala Tannoy - that wider sweet spot makes sense - perhaps the MTM arrangement is simply a way of fooling the ear that the HF and LF are emanating from the same point, as in dual concentrics. (as if the two small woofers are the equivalent to one larger one and the HF is bang in the centre, ... I'm probably talking complete nonsense - but I enjoy trying to guess!

Oh, and that Rube Goldberg comp was news to me - checked out a few vids until I saw what you mean - it soon starts to get a bit passe, here we go again, yet another domino effect and then the watergatan marbles machine likewise - although I'm glad he made it because it reminds me of some mad time machine or whatever.

I never cease to be impressed by the real old mechanical stuff though, the 250 year old Silver Swan automata for instance or the boy writer / the musician / the draughtsman etc - If you've never seen them they're worth 5 minutes of anyone's time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT05uNFb6hY

Thanks again - I'll keep reading

Steve

[mojobone]

Steve, you are understanding linear phase response just fine; it's the reason my studio's interface was north of two grand. (I just wish my monitors were similarly capable, but all in good time) Another important aspect of speaker design is porting, and there's a lovely rant in Mike Senior's book, "Mixing Secrets For The Small Studio", which every bedroom producer needs to own, so I won't blather about it, here.

I'm not sure how much we need to know about the dark arts of circuit and speaker design, just so we can make some bitchin' music, but it sure doesn't hurt to know a little something, when it comes to deciding how to budget our limited resources while building our music-making rigs.

[NaeDae]

I saw that marble machine and holy smokes it blew my mind. The same guy did a "Star Machine" song on a homemade music box thing that was really beautiful too. Something about how pure it sounds knowing it's all from one machine kinda brings up nostalgic imagery. It's a genius way to stand out.

[ernstinen]

I own original Yamaha NS-10M monitors from 1985. From what I've heard (I know it's hard to believe), the actual TREE from which the woofer fiber came from on the original model is EXTINCT. So, any attempt to make a speaker that sounds exactly like the original ones is pretty much impossible.

Two things about NS-10's: 1.) Yamaha says they go down to about 55 Hz. That's nonsense. You really need to have a subwoofer that you trust to hear the low lows in a mix. I a/b my mixes through other speakers that go down to 20 Hz. 2.) The old adage that "If your mix sounds good on NS-10's, it will sound good on any speaker in the world" is, from my experience, TRUE! And people say "NS-10's sound like crap!" Well, no, your MIX sounds like crap. What these monitors are famous for is to fine-tune the midrange. For that, they are the best. You can hear every little frequency problem with those babies, and adjust them accordingly.

That's all I know from experience with them. How they compare to other Yamaha monitors, I don't know. But I do know that having a lot of experience with the monitors of your choice is pretty important. I've heard many people like different monitors because they "know" the sound of them. It's pretty much all in the ears, anyway. Frank Zappa, for instance, used to mix on his home stereo speakers!... Personally, the speakers I "know" the best are the standard Toyota speakers in my car. I ALWAYS burn a CD and go and listen in the car before I'm set with a mix. And many, many CD-R's go in the trash during this process, believe me! A different environment like your car or home stereo is always a good way to make sure the mix is done properly. If it's not, write down the tweaks and go back to the studio. You're almost there!

Hope this helps,

Ern

[Len911]

From what I've heard (I know it's hard to believe), the actual TREE from which the woofer fiber came from on the original model is EXTINCT.

Here is an actual quote from Yamaha

from its introduction in the 80's through to its recent discontinuation (due to unavailability of the necessary pure virgin pulp for its distinctive white woofer cone), the NS10M STUDIO was the definitive near-field speaker monitor in an overwhelming majority of professional studios throughout the world.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/music-pr ... s/msp10st/

Pure virgin pulp vs. virgin pulp + recycled paper, is my understanding. Virgin pulp just means from freshly cut trees.
Paper mills are huge, and would be unlikely to make small batches of special order paper, it's the economy of scale. And they also receive and use recyled paper. They are also located where an ample supply of trees are present, and a renewable source (re-plantable so they don't run out). The cost is too prohibitive to transport trees long distance by truck, recycled paper is somewhat different, because it is collected at a much smaller cost, or subsidized by trash pickup fees, and some municipalities even require it to be recycled. The mills pay for baled paper, not much, but usually enough to pay the trucking company and a small profit to the recycler. Anyway
It's unimaginable, though not impossible I suppose for a paper mill to be located near a small forest of rare and depleting forests, unless it would be China but it's my understanding that they've been depleted way before the '80's and rely primarily on recyled cardboard.

Otoh, I believe for guitar woods, it's a much different story!

And mobile homes... Usually regional and use 1 ply tires, just good enough to hopefully get them to their final destination. Usually not, that is why the day cabs carry many spares and a jack, and you usually spot a driver changing a tire.