Another ambiguous return.

[matto]

Aug 27, 2009, 10:14am, wings wrote:Then - SAY IT'S FOR TV It said..."Music Producer who is creating a new independent music library"..."he is the provider of music for a huge daytime television talk show"Given that TV is one of the major users of library music and this guy is connected in (daytime) TV, it would appear somewhat obvious that TV friendly music is what's needed...or not?As far as the "impact" issue: anytime you are sending a demo out that represents you as a composer to a potential client, it needs to have impact. You have to IMPRESS the person because your demo is going to be one among many this person will listen to, so you need to get straight to the point and "show your stuff".It's really akin to making an impression on a job interview. Does every job listing in your local newspaper say: "Essential to make an impression during job interview"? No, beacuse that's just common sense. So it is with music demos. If you didn't know this, you just learned an imprtant lesson for only 15 bucks.Also, if you really feel that making a living in the music business is by far the cheesiest way of making a living, perhaps you should just stick to your many other businesses instead of insulting those "cheeseheads" among us who do make a living with music. Just a thought...matto

[matto]

Aug 28, 2009, 11:47am, markjsmith wrote: OK, WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO RESEARCH ON THE LISTINGS! I paid TAXI money-that price should include FULL disclosure on what the listings want! Not ambiguous descriptions (can a brother get an ala?). This is REALLY the case on instrumental listings more so than other genres. Being that I'm an instrumental guy this drives me a little nuts!Mark, I can pretty much guarantee you this description came from the listing party, and Taxi did their best to clarify it further.I can tell you from my experience having worked professionally as a composer in the tv/film industries for a number of years now, that these vague descriptions are commonplace when you deal with non music people and if it is your goal to make a living within the music for media industries you HAVE to learn to read between the lines and you HAVE to be willing to do your research. If you take these listings as an opportunity to learn about the type of descriptions common in the industry you will be all the better prepared when you get those calls directly from producers...If you rant and complain about them you'll prove to any producer or music library owner who happens to drop by these forums that you're not ready for the job.I've gotten descriptions from "We want it kind of like Vegas but with a French twist" (I nailed that one, for a major blockbuster movie) to "Really a Southern Gospel sound, but more like John Williams" (missed that one by a mile , it was the theme for a daytime diva's prestigious primetime special)...and those were some of the better descriptions actually. This IS what it's like to work with producers in the media world, and telling them they are full of it and should the f**k be clearer in their descriptions doesn't work too well...trust me. HTH,matto

[fusilierb]

Aug 28, 2009, 9:40pm, matto wrote:Aug 27, 2009, 10:14am, wings wrote:Then - SAY IT'S FOR TV It said..."Music Producer who is creating a new independent music library"..."he is the provider of music for a huge daytime television talk show"Given that TV is one of the major users of library music and this guy is connected in (daytime) TV, it would appear somewhat obvious that TV friendly music is what's needed...or not?As far as the "impact" issue: anytime you are sending a demo out that represents you as a composer to a potential client, it needs to have impact. You have to IMPRESS the person because your demo is going to be one among many this person will listen to, so you need to get straight to the point and "show your stuff".It's really akin to making an impression on a job interview. Does every job listing in your local newspaper say: "Essential to make an impression during job interview"? No, beacuse that's just common sense. So it is with music demos. If you didn't know this, you just learned an imprtant lesson for only 15 bucks.Also, if you really feel that making a living in the music business is by far the cheesiest way of making a living, perhaps you should just stick to your many other businesses instead of insulting those "cheeseheads" among us who do make a living with music. Just a thought...mattoWow matto, the truth comes crashing out. This is refreshingly clear guidance. Thanks!B

[fusilierb]

By the way wings. I have nothing but respect for you writing or your ability. But that response just seemed like golden, privy information.

[didger]

Aug 28, 2009, 9:40pm, matto wrote:As far as the "impact" issue: anytime you are sending a demo out that represents you as a composer to a potential client, it needs to have impact. You have to IMPRESS the person because your demo is going to be one among many this person will listen to, so you need to get straight to the point and "show your stuff".Hey Matto,I was actually avoiding posting in this thread, but your clear statement here helps me clear up the question this listing & its returns brings up for me.Don't you also need to show your mellow stuff that is also needed in TV? Can't a client by impressed by perfect mellow underscore as well as high impact pieces? Mazz said in this thread that the client recently rejected some of his pieces for being too busy, while what he needs is beds - which I read as simple music that DOESN'T draw attention away from what's on screen. I submitted nine tracks in different genres for this listing, and three were forwarded, all of which were high impact hybrid orchestra. Other excellent mellow pieces were returned for having not enough melodic or harmonic surprises (one of which a screener had raved about as a perfect example of "less is more" for an earlier listing). I think this very quality makes them perfect as TV underscore for something like a talk show. You don't want constant high impact, attention getting surprises underscoring a human interest story. In fact, one of the pieces that was forwarded this time was rejected for the daytime talk show listing a few months ago, so clearly the same criteria are not being applied.So particularly with Mazz's comment, I wonder, does this client need to hear three more high impact orchestra pieces by me, or should he also have heard mellower pieces that were returned? Like you say, you need to represent what you can do as a composer, but in this case, I don't understand why the client is being given a very narrow view of what I can offer. I wonder if I won't get a call because he's already got his high impact orchestra composers, but he needed something else.Thoughts?

[mazz]

Don't base it all on my comments. My comments were giving an example of one isolated description that came from the producer's clients, the ones that ultimately pick the pieces.I would imagine if you get contacted by the listing party for this particular listing, you'll be asked if you can write in a variety of styles, asked if you have a problem with your music being torn apart and having to go back and edit it, if you are a team player, and if you can do all of that in a hurry.Whatever got you forwarded, in this case high impact orchestra, may have been chosen by the screener because that shows off your composing skills the best. If those pieces inspire the guy to give you a call, then you can play him other stuff that you think he might need.Mazz

[markjsmith]

Hi Matto, I understand what you are saying, and I've actually gotten pretty good at reading between the lines! I've had a quite a few forwards on some of these vague listings (heck, I had a tune forwarded on this one). I just think since we are PAYING Taxi that they should do the same for us instrumental guys as they do for pop or country songwriters (re: my Can a brother get an ala? comment). Just about all the songwriter listings get ala (whoever) and us instro guys half at best. As far as dealing with these descriptions, I've dealt with musical descriptions as vague as "Can you make it sound more Green?", and once had a guy try to tell me what to play by what Rock and Roll stance he made! I can deal with vague! The problem with vague listings is you can't ALWAYS nail it. I would never argue with a music super over a song or "anything" for that matter! I want their ears! However, if I felt I wasn't understanding what they wanted I'd surely ask a couple questions till I thought I had it nailed down! I know sometimes they don't know what they want "till they hear it", but Taxi would be good to put this in the listing! I'm not really trying to rant, but we all PAY Taxi! Part of what we pay them for is them doing research on these listings.-Mark

[matto]

Aug 29, 2009, 8:04am, markjsmith wrote:Hi Matto, I understand what you are saying, and I've actually gotten pretty good at reading between the lines! I've had a quite a few forwards on some of these vague listings (heck, I had a tune forwarded on this one). I just think since we are PAYING Taxi that they should do the same for us instrumental guys as they do for pop or country songwriters (re: my Can a brother get an ala? comment). Just about all the songwriter listings get ala (whoever) and us instro guys half at best. That's because the a la's come from the listing party. I could be wrong about this but I wouldn't be surprised that when this individual called in the listing, Taxi probably asked "What do you mean by all genres...can you give us some examples?"..to which the lister might've replied "All genres means exactly that...no stone will be left unturned"...Now Taxi could've said, "Sorry sir, unless you give us a la's we cannot run this listing because our members are paying us for this service"...to which the lister might have replied: "You f&*%$#@ a*&%#$@, don't you know who the f%$# I am, I will go find my f &%$#$& composers elsewhere" Personally, I'd rather HAVE the opportunity knowing full well that I may or may not nail it.I know we are paying Taxi...but as far as I'm concerned we are not paying them to present to us some kind of musical utopia that doesn't exist in the real world, where every potential client knows exactly what they want and is able to express it beautifully...if they did this they would do us a disservice IMHO. We are paying them to connect us with the real life muisc business, warts and all.Quote:I can deal with vague! The problem with vague listings is you can't ALWAYS nail it. Exactly...that's something that's the same in the real world and I go in accepting it when I throw my hat in the ring. The examples I mentioned in the last post were a lot like Taxi listings...no pay unless you nail the assignment, and the descriptions are very vague. You ask as many questions as you feel you can without ticking the person off (that may be only one or two unless you know the person fairly well)...remember the more questions you ask the more likely are you to expose the fact that they don't know what it is they want, and if you've ever worked with producers you know they'd rather say "sorry you really just don't seem to be *getting* this, we'll go with someone else" rather than admit that they don't know what they're doing...Knowing what the real world is I find the Taxi listings quite clear generally speaking, certainly a lot better than the average real world description. So I feel I have a much better chance of nailing the listing, which to me is well worth the price of admission.I don't think the sytem *can* be perfect because it's dealing with a very imperfect real world.

[matto]

Aug 29, 2009, 7:38am, didger wrote:Don't you also need to show your mellow stuff that is also needed in TV? Can't a client by impressed by perfect mellow underscore as well as high impact pieces? Mazz said in this thread that the client recently rejected some of his pieces for being too busy, while what he needs is beds - which I read as simple music that DOESN'T draw attention away from what's on screen.Randin in my experience nine times out of ten they will pick demos that WOW them. Regardless of whether what they actually need is unobtrusive bg music. I suppose the thinking is if a composer can wow you then writing subdued underscore music would be easy for them. IF there's even any thinking involved...my feeling is they just go with gut instinct. And WOW will hit you in the gut much more than subdued.Remember we are not dealing with musicians nine times out of ten.To go back to the job interview analogy, what most companies look for in most employees is someone that blends in, does his job competently without drawing much attention to himself, and doesn't question his superiors. A "unremarkable cog" for the giant machinery. However, if you go into a job interview presenting yourself as an unremarkable cog, they won't go "Wow, you are EXACTLY what this company needs!!" ...instead they will have forgotten about you by the time you close the door behind you.This is how it is with demos, in my experience. The word demo comes from "demonstration recording". You have to "demonstrate" what you can do, which in my book is a stronger word than just "show"...it's more like "show off".Now please remember I'm NOT saying every piece you submit to every listing should be some giant orchestral movie trailer that would make the walls of Jericho crumble. But, while remaining in the context of the listing, and unless otherwise specified, a demo that has "impact" will get you that call back much more frequently than one that's subdued underscore.

[slideboardouts]

I guess I'll throw in a few comments here:First off, regarding the listing, I know for a fact that it is as clear as possible. I have worked with this company for almost a year and a half now on the daytime talk show and have committed to doing 40 cues for the new library that this listing is for. Before this listing came out I had talked with the owner about what he was looking for exactly. He replied "everything." So all of the TAXI members submitting for this listing got the EXACT same info that I had, and I know and frequently communicate with the listing party!!Regarding the "impact" of the demos and whether or not to do subdued or "WOW" type pieces... I totally agree with matto. You're trying to make an impression that will make you stand out from the crowd. Send some "WOW." When I submitted to the listing that got me working with this company I knew what show I would be writing for, but I didn't submit the kind of music that I thought would play on the show. I was submitting instrumentals that had been forwarded to listings where a major label producer or manager had screened submissions himself and was looking for hits ... in other words, I sent in my best stuff.-Steve