Country Music Listing Confusion....?!

[matto]

Some excellent points made all around. Obviously the "Franklin, TN intelligentsia" makes an excellent scapegoat for those who would blame Hollywood for any and all developments they don't like, but I think the truth is rather a bit more complex. Among other things, the (sub)urbanization of America has had a profound impact on culture and demographics, and the fundamental transformation of the US media landscape (driven by a "free market ueber alles" ideology) has had a similar impact on radio station play lists from coast to coast. And neither of these issues are particularly driven by the "liberal elite". Just saying... Quote:Real Singer/Songwriters are passed over for bing to "folky", and instead you get pop music ala john mayer and james blunt.So...John Mayer is not a "Real Singer/Songwriter" huh?Hmmm...he sings rather well...he writes some pretty amazing songs, from both a lyrical and musical standpoint...okay so he plays the guitar about 10 times better than all the "little strummer boys", and girls, out there, but really, not a real singer/songwriter?I for one don't feel his music is "watered down", I think it's 100 proof John Mayer. I think he's doing exactly what he wants to be doing, which is a major reason for his success.Labeling everybody who has commercial success a "sell-out" is rather condescending, because not only does it imply that we are somehow privy to what's going on in another person's head, but also that we ourselves could do just as well as that "sell-out" if we wanted to...we just have "higher moral standards" so we choose not to. Yeah right... Please don't take this as an attack on you personally Rob, I agree with your point overall. It's just that that sentence really struck me as kind of pompous...and I know your not a pompous person and I'm sure it wasn't meant that way... matto

[ddusty]

No offense taken, Matto. I should have been clearer in my post. When I said "I am not knocking the stuff that is out now” I was referring to all of the modern artists I mentioned in my examples. I am a big fan of John Mayer's talent, personally I do not like the production on his studio albums, but I am not the target audience. I thought his original ep was amazing, it was most of the same songs that ended up on room for squares. I bought room for squares when it came out and was disappointed that his talent was buried in the production (again, JMO and I am not the target).This post was started over the classification of songs. I should have been more clear, I was not insinuating that John Mayer cannot sing or write songs. Metalica sings and writes songs, but I do not classify them as Singer/Songwriter's as a genre. To me JM falls under pop.To some pop is a dirty word, I don't feel that way. Maybe i should have said AAA.You are right, I should not have said "watered down" as that insinuates that it is inferior. Although I can't think of the proper term, as all of the metaphors I have are too demeaning. Is sanitized better? There is something that is done to make certain music more mainstream. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is something.I was not labeling successful people sell outs, on the contrary I said that others may perceive us TAXI members (including myself) as sell outs because we are trying to make a living, but I do not agree with them.Some of these posts have gotten to be quite lengthy, so I think my intention was lost.To sum up my summary.All types of music genres have evolved over time, and that has created larger audiences for our music.The line between the genres is starting to blur. Instead of trying to fight things you cannot change, learn to use things to your advantage.Rob

[matto]

Quote:This post was started over the classification of songs. I should have been more clear, I was not insinuating that John Mayer cannot sing or write songs. Metalica sings and writes songs, but I do not classify them as Singer/Songwriter's as a genre. To me JM falls under pop.Well, we can argue about definitions. And I think actually that's exactly what started this post. I think what makes John Mayer a singer/songwriter is not only that he sings and writes his own songs, but that he can convincingly perform them by himself with just his guitar. The fact that he often chooses not to do that still doesn't make him pop. It's the age old question...did Dylan cease to be a singer/songwriter when he chose to go electric?The industry defines John Mayer and James Blunt and Michelle Branch as singer/songwriters. We can disagree with that definition...we can each have our own definition as a matter of fact. That just makes it a lot harder to communicate among ourselves and with the industry. I chose to use standard industry terms (inasmuch as they are "standard") not because I'm a yes man who can't think for himself, but because it's a lot easier to say, "I'm gonna try to write a contemporary country song" than..."I'm gonna write a watered down adult contemporary song with a steel guitar, what those San Francisco lesbian record execs in Franklin TN call contemporary country"...

[og]

Hey jimmynashville, I can pretty much agree with you on every point. I'm an Ozark hillbilly, and folksinger to boot (don't think I got some cross-genre issues?) The only major thing I disagree with is who you are blaming. Follow the money, brother, where's it coming from?

[ddusty]

I agree Matto,I guess i was trying to make an analogy between what jimmynashville is going through and what I noticed in genre's that i submit to. What fit's the description of S/SW today probably would not have fit 15 years ago. And yes, it is our duty as songwriters to evolve with the music industry if we want to sell-out work (sorry, couldn't resist) I am not complaining about these developments, just pointing out my observations.I am probably not using the pop term correctly either, to me pop = top 40. Just short for popular (nothing wrong with being popular )Rob

[rcase]

Quote:Labeling everybody who has commercial success a "sell-out" is rather condescending, because not only does it imply that we are somehow privy to what's going on in another person's head, but also that we ourselves could do just as well as that "sell-out" if we wanted to...we just have "higher moral standards" so we choose not to. Yeah right... I just wanted to add something re the attitude I think matto is referencing.. as I think we've all heard it expressed in different ways. For me, I'm thinking of when somebody says, "I could write that crap they're playing on the radio", or something to that extent. Immediately, I find myself wanting to say "Then why don't you do it? I mean, even if only once, to finance other projects that are more personal for you. If it's really that easy (and yes, I admit some of it does sound as if it were constructed within an hour or two at most), why don't you do it, and get out from under that day job, etc??"

[avillaronga]

Reading back the post I made yesterday I see how some things I said may have been taken as me having the attitude that rcase is referring to or considering being commercially viable a bad thing. What I meant when I said I had "principles" and would not do a certain type of music is that I consider that type of music to be perpetuating stereotypes that some of us are tired of and fighting against every day, not that I thought it was crappy music that I could do with my eyes closed if I wanted to make a buck. I don't think adapting to be commercially viable makes someone a "sell-out". I do music because it fulfills me as a person; because it is such a fulfilling experience, I'd like to make a living doing that. If being able to make a living doing what you love most means that you have to make concessions and adapt to the market, so be it, you'd have to do a little bit of that in any profession. But trying to make a living should not preclude someone from continuing to do the type of music they love simply because it is not commercially viable (the more traditional music), that's the point I was trying to make in response to the original posting by jimmynashville. Write that music because it is in your soul, but learn to write other types of music that would allow you to continue doing what you love.

[rcase]

Quote:To some pop is a dirty word, I don't feel that way. Maybe i should have said AAA.Rob, you brought back a fond memory for me: A buddy of mine (who has much hipper musical tastes than I do) told me about a saying uttered by some in the circles he often travels in- "Pop is just missing an o".He mentioned this after I somewhat sheepishly admitted my love for almost every song/album Mutt Lange has ever produced. I should mention this buddy is a cool, open-minded dude.. while he's a blue's afficianado and pretty much doesn't listen to anything 'mainstream', he said he was infatuated with The Cars' 'Heartbeat City' - a Mutt production- when he was a younger lad.

[trentoliphant]

There's a commercial on one of the local Country Stations here that says something like "We're the station where you don't have to listen to this - (clip from "Ghost Riders in the Sky") in order to listen to this - (clip from a current hit - I can't recall which one).Every time it comes on I wish they would play more of Ghost Riders. Fortunately there is another station in the market that plays many of the older more "traditional" songs.I remember having a discussion in a composition class in school about "pandering". My thought at the time and still is that I would rather write to reach the largest number of people. I'll admit it's partially for monetary reasons, but also because to me that's the purpose of art - is to communicate something. I come from a choral music background and once had a conversation with one of my idols Mack Wilberg (he is currently the number one composer in terms of unit sales for Oxford University Press). He said something that really stuck with me - he said "I write music that people want to hear". That's all that Nashville is trying to do - produce music that people want to hear. There may be some problems with the system as it stands (otherwise why all the hubbub about the shift to digital music distribution), but it has been very good at figuring out what people want to hear.Definitions of things change all the time as society as a whole evolves. We can either lament the fact the the way we define a word is not in line with others, or we can try to understand what they mean when they say the word - so that we can better communicate with them. Isn't that what writing music is all about in the first place - communicating something to other person (or hopefully lots of them).

[jimmynashville]

Wow, I don't believe that my malcontented nature has created such discussion. A few clarifications are in order, however...I believe that the current state of a segment of the Nashville recording industry is to market to demographic groups outside the conventional country audience. I'm not knocking everything in Nashville or I wouldn't be here. Also, I don't like music written by commitee, which is the typical pop-country song. A few people with a 9 to 5 downtown sit down in the morning and read a memo from the Executive Vice President of Crappy Music that says we need a song of the subject A for artist B that runs 3 minutes and 55 seconds, because we already have the video, and we need it by Friday. Go to work. File a TPS report by noon.Furthermore, yes, I'm joking about "brushing my tooth" and trailers, etc., but I've been hit with all that kind of b.s. by playing music that has subject matter involving certain things that my type of people enjoy, which certain non-native Nashville types don't even understand, like hunting, 4-wheel drive trucks, car racing, etc. Because someone enjoys what may be stereotypical diversions does not make them everything the stereotype is.The South has evolved, but cosmopolitan? I sure as hell hope not. I'm doing everything I can, anyway, to keep it from becoming that. Cosmopolitan implies "multi-cultural", a code word for the denegration of the indigenous culture in favor of something from outside. The end result is the demise of the culture.Birmingham, AL may have a Starbuck's and Nashville may have a Nordstrom's, but any good 'ole boy worth his salt hasn't spent $5 for a latte or let his woman spend $500 for a pair of shoes. The "diverse" population from California, New York, and Miami are the demand for that crap. BTW, I could afford to buy a $5 cup of coffee and a $500 pair of shoes, but I get a 10 cent cup of coffee from my coffee maker, and I got a $100 pair of Dan Posts from French's Boots. Who's the dumbass?A final thought, if I had the opportunity to completely inundate the public with a song, like they do on pop country radio, by playing it twice an hour every day, all day, while they're all listening to a radio station at work and can't get up and change the channel, I could make them like almost anything. I have no payola money, however, that stuff is expensive...