Country Music Listing Confusion....?!

[jimmynashville]

Yet another thought, and this is an example of what I'm talking about, there was a song a couple of years back that was played to no end on pop country radio. I defy anyone to tell me anything about this song that was Country. It's ridiculous that anyone would ever even think that this song was Country, but it was defined that way, and eventually accepted that way. It is the perfect example of pop country payola bullcrap.The song is "Picture" by Kid Rock/Sheryl Crow. What element in that song, lyrical, instrumental, or otherwise, is even remotely Country?!?! I can call "Colors" by Ice-T Classic Rock, but just because I call it that, does the fact that I call it that make it so? I can call "Oops I did it again" by Britney Spears Classical, does that make it Classical? If every program director in radio bought into selling it that way, and they played "Colors" on the Classic Rock station, and the Britney Spears song on NPR, people would start believing it, however, because the public, as an aggregate, is accepting but fickle. Especially if you market something to people it's not normally marketed to. Now you've drawn in a brand new "country" fan base with one song. Mainly because you have a large group of non-Country fans thinking that's what Country is, so you can market junk pop Country as real Country to a much larger group of people. At least for a time, if enough people believe it, it starts to be true, no matter who is spoon-feeding what to them.Avril Lavigne claims to be punk, but when Joe Strummer died, she was asked by a reporter how she felt about his passing. She replied "who?"...

[matto]

Quote:I have no payola money, however, that stuff is expensive...Comeon now, what with all the money you're saving on coffee and shoes? Honestly though, if you look at the stats, payola doesn't work all that well. there are countless of examples where they spent ungodly amounts of money trying to get a song to hit and it still didn't.A song with payola money behind it has a better shot at succeeding, just like one recorded by a superstar does. Yet neither gurantees the song will become a hit. Quote:The song is "Picture" by Kid Rock/Sheryl Crow.100% with you on that one. I never understood why that song was played on country radio, and it actually pissed me off a little. And I like a lot of the pop country...or "corn pop", as I like to call it . But there's not a even kernel of corn it that song... matto

[sgs4u]

Here Jimmy, let's try this.There actually is, no confusion here, because Taxi is supplying music to fit the NEEDS of a consumer. The consumer says what he/she wants, and Taxi tries to find it. So what if the Kid Rock/Sheryl Crow thing sucked, and tanked. That is an extreme example, and you're using it to dilute your point, all the way to moot. I wish I'd wrote the damn thing tho. And it's likely if you write songs a lot, and someone gives you the opportunity to write a 2nd rate duet/ballad for the 2 of those artists, you'd say yes. I'd say thank-you so mushy for this opportunity, I have 50 tunes we can peruse thru, and my friends have another 100 or so. And if Taxi runs a listing looking for 2nd rate ballad duets, I'll submit some of my lousier stuff... That's just not gonna happen. Get over your grief, and get to work. I like discussing where things could or might go, but not so much where you think they ought, to be going. Do you know what I mean? Let's deal with how things are, and if you wanna make changes, go after the entities that can implement your ideology. Not songwriters... All we do is write what comes out, or what'll stand a chance of getting cut or placed. Collectively, this forum does not wield the power or clout you'd need to have, to make such a grand change. I think you will find support for your perspective here. However, if you're thinking that the BOSS, is going to start shouting from the rooftops, THAT AIN"T COUNTRY, (well yes, he can be outspoken...) surely you must see, that would be business suicide for Taxi. Are you suggesting Taxi or anyone should dictate to the entertainment INDUSTRY, what they should be playlisting? Go on ahead, I'll jes set thisun out, mebbe watch a spell...The entities that decide what songs get into heavy rotation on hit radio, are not that hard to identify. There are a few labels, there are a few entertainment conglomerates (who own 1000's of media outlets/radio stations), and there are a very few, extremely influencial radio consultants. You seem to think they do a lousy job of deciding what should be allowable, as part of the country genre. Lots of people agree with you. But the decisions that these powerful entities make are about what earns money, and what loses money. I'm not applying for any of those jobs. Because they're not about making music. I will let them decide on the rules and genres, and then I will chose to either adhere to them, or break them willingly. I'm not gonna tell them what to do. (ok, not for a long time) What is on the radio, has never been about ART, unless you broaden the term to include the business of selling that art. Creating hits is also about the selling of the art. They're tied together. I think that's a fabulous art/craft unto itself. The marriage of art and commerce. I readily admit, "The Music Business, According to JimmyNashville," has a nice ring to it. "The World of Music, by steve à gilbert," sounds like an equally fascinating title. Now who's opinion matters more? Who frikkin needs to bother caring what we think? Whoever makes the most inroads into the existing system, is likely the most able to change things. Or we could decide to live outside the system, away from the man (cue Jack Black...), and throw silly darts poisoned with cynicism and pessimism. I threw enough darts for a coupla decades, I'd rather join in the fun now, and play ball. If the country genre includes all the nasty things you see, well you could just sit back and wait. 'Cause it'll all comes around again, ya know. While you're waiting it out, I'm adapting to what exists, and where I notice things are going. If, by luck or fate you should happen to facilitate the kind of change you are advocating, your phone would ring with me congratulating you fervently, on your new position of influence. I wouldn't even feel like I was eating crow, cause my only focus, is trying to make music that guys like you, need. So it doesn't matter to me who decides what fits the genre, only that I learn it, and respond to it.I mean no disrespect to Taxi forumers with this, but Jimmy, this is a creative/learning enviroment, not a political movement. Many of us have political views that matter, but that's not why were here, on this Taxi forum. you really have to try this purple kool-aid, you'll feel so relaxed steve Quote:Yet another thought, and this is an example of what I'm talking about, there was a song a couple of years back that was played to no end on pop country radio. I defy anyone to tell me anything about this song that was Country. It's ridiculous that anyone would ever even think that this song was Country, but it was defined that way, and eventually accepted that way. It is the perfect example of pop country payola bullcrap.The song is "Picture" by Kid Rock/Sheryl Crow. What element in that song, lyrical, instrumental, or otherwise, is even remotely Country?!?! I can call "Colors" by Ice-T Classic Rock, but just because I call it that, does the fact that I call it that make it so? I can call "Oops I did it again" by Britney Spears Classical, does that make it Classical? If every program director in radio bought into selling it that way, and they played "Colors" on the Classic Rock station, and the Britney Spears song on NPR, people would start believing it, however, because the public, as an aggregate, is accepting but fickle. Especially if you market something to people it's not normally marketed to. Now you've drawn in a brand new "country" fan base with one song. Mainly because you have a large group of non-Country fans thinking that's what Country is, so you can market junk pop Country as real Country to a much larger group of people. At least for a time, if enough people believe it, it starts to be true, no matter who is spoon-feeding what to them.Avril Lavigne claims to be punk, but when Joe Strummer died, she was asked by a reporter how she felt about his passing. She replied "who?"...Avril Lavigne, is simply the 2007's chic/punk flavor. And she's Canadian, so she MUST be GREAT. Because she is a punker at heart, she's also pretty good at not giving a rat's a$$ about what some reporter is asking her. Dylan was the same with the press.

[sgs4u]

I've also just realized that making jokes about drinking purple kool-aid is tasteless, and certainly would be very bitter to the people who lost loved ones during the Jonestown tragedy. It's a cliche I now banish from my limited vocabulary.

[Casey H]

It's funny that you mention "Picture". I've been thinking about posting a bunch of songs that would probably get rejected on the spot by a publisher or screener but were successful. That post would just be for fun, not to say people should expect to write songs like that and make it. New writers should always go with the odds in their favor especially when it's a million to one to start with.My guess is that a professional would say that the lyrics to "Picture" are not believable. These two people love each other so much that they sleep with everything else in sight? Now, maybe you could say that in the life style of a male star on the road, it might be plausible (regardless of your moral opinion)- that is frequently how they act. But add to it the woman who loves him so much she is also sleeping around? No chauvinism intended, but I don't think this reflects how (in general) people act. Casey

[jchitty]

Quote:Wow, I don't believe that my malcontented nature has created such discussion. A few clarifications are in order, however...I believe that the current state of a segment of the Nashville recording industry is to market to demographic groups outside the conventional country audience. I'm not knocking everything in Nashville or I wouldn't be here. Also, I don't like music written by commitee, which is the typical pop-country song. A few people with a 9 to 5 downtown sit down in the morning and read a memo from the Executive Vice President of Crappy Music that says we need a song of the subject A for artist B that runs 3 minutes and 55 seconds, because we already have the video, and we need it by Friday. Go to work. File a TPS report by noon.Furthermore, yes, I'm joking about "brushing my tooth" and trailers, etc., but I've been hit with all that kind of b.s. by playing music that has subject matter involving certain things that my type of people enjoy, which certain non-native Nashville types don't even understand, like hunting, 4-wheel drive trucks, car racing, etc. Because someone enjoys what may be stereotypical diversions does not make them everything the stereotype is.The South has evolved, but cosmopolitan? I sure as hell hope not. I'm doing everything I can, anyway, to keep it from becoming that. Cosmopolitan implies "multi-cultural", a code word for the denegration of the indigenous culture in favor of something from outside. The end result is the demise of the culture.Birmingham, AL may have a Starbuck's and Nashville may have a Nordstrom's, but any good 'ole boy worth his salt hasn't spent $5 for a latte or let his woman spend $500 for a pair of shoes. The "diverse" population from California, New York, and Miami are the demand for that crap. BTW, I could afford to buy a $5 cup of coffee and a $500 pair of shoes, but I get a 10 cent cup of coffee from my coffee maker, and I got a $100 pair of Dan Posts from French's Boots. Who's the dumbass?A final thought, if I had the opportunity to completely inundate the public with a song, like they do on pop country radio, by playing it twice an hour every day, all day, while they're all listening to a radio station at work and can't get up and change the channel, I could make them like almost anything. I have no payola money, however, that stuff is expensive...Umm, if you go back and read my original post, you'd see that I said "I knew you were joking about the 'hillbilly' thing to drive home a point. So I did get where you were going with that.Here's the deal.....I think you might be very narrow in what you believe country should be. That's about as bluntly as I can put it. And those 'good old boys who are worth their salt' you mention are listening to all types of country music now, even what's cranked out by the Executive President of Crappy Music.And I'm thinking those good 'ole boys might be appalled by what they see as a certain 'elitism' in you. Yeah, you cloak that in "I don't drink five dollar lattes or wear expensive shoes," but it comes off as snobbery to me nonetheless....maybe reverse snobbery in this case.The South is changing, whether you like it or not and Nashville is having to cater to new and different tastes. Young people are the major buyers now, and many of them don't care for traditional country as much. Matt has a good point, and I brought this up as well. The South is not so much an agrarian society anymore. We're turning into a suburban society and people in the 'burbs are country music buyers now....and that has had an effect on what people purchase. These people drink lattes, and they are NOT ASHAMED, hehe. In fact, I will now create an over the top stereotype about people of the New South....we are Starbucks latte drinkin', Norstrom shoppin' Southerners.....we don't drink ten cent coffee and we drive big 'ole fancy Mercedes and BMW's, and we wear Jimmy Choos. Here's a song I wrote in mind with that.....look for it to be a BIG HIT: Hehehehe. This is about a person who lives in a suburb, but they still grow a vegetable garden in in the back yard of their subdivision tract home. Call it 'agrarian meets suburban.'Vegetable Gardenjchitty copyright 2007Verse 1I'm a Southern Yuppie with Southern waysAnd I come from farming rootsI may work in an office all dayBut I still wear cowboy bootsSometimes the stress it gets to meAnd life can be so hardThat's when I find some therapyIn a plot in my backyardChorus:I gotta vegetable gardenVegetable gardenI got peas and butterbeansTomato plants and collard greensI got squash and peppers tooThere ain't no plant that I can't doI got a vegetable gardenVerse 2The boss, he's breathing down neckI can't wait to get awayTo a slice of heaven near my deckWhere the cukes and the watermelons playMy tomatoes are red and prettyAnd my peppers will knock you outI love getting my hands dirty I just wanna scream and shoutChorus I gotta vegetable gardenVegetable gardenI got peas and butterbeansTomato plants and collard greensI got squash and peppers tooThere ain't no plant that I can't doI got a vegetable garden.....

[jchitty]

Quote:Wow, I don't believe that my malcontented nature has created such discussion. A few clarifications are in order, however...I believe that the current state of a segment of the Nashville recording industry is to market to demographic groups outside the conventional country audience. I'm not knocking everything in Nashville or I wouldn't be here. Also, I don't like music written by commitee, which is the typical pop-country song. A few people with a 9 to 5 downtown sit down in the morning and read a memo from the Executive Vice President of Crappy Music that says we need a song of the subject A for artist B that runs 3 minutes and 55 seconds, because we already have the video, and we need it by Friday. Go to work. File a TPS report by noon.Furthermore, yes, I'm joking about "brushing my tooth" and trailers, etc., but I've been hit with all that kind of b.s. by playing music that has subject matter involving certain things that my type of people enjoy, which certain non-native Nashville types don't even understand, like hunting, 4-wheel drive trucks, car racing, etc. Because someone enjoys what may be stereotypical diversions does not make them everything the stereotype is.The South has evolved, but cosmopolitan? I sure as hell hope not. I'm doing everything I can, anyway, to keep it from becoming that. Cosmopolitan implies "multi-cultural", a code word for the denegration of the indigenous culture in favor of something from outside. The end result is the demise of the culture.Birmingham, AL may have a Starbuck's and Nashville may have a Nordstrom's, but any good 'ole boy worth his salt hasn't spent $5 for a latte or let his woman spend $500 for a pair of shoes. The "diverse" population from California, New York, and Miami are the demand for that crap. BTW, I could afford to buy a $5 cup of coffee and a $500 pair of shoes, but I get a 10 cent cup of coffee from my coffee maker, and I got a $100 pair of Dan Posts from French's Boots. Who's the dumbass?A final thought, if I had the opportunity to completely inundate the public with a song, like they do on pop country radio, by playing it twice an hour every day, all day, while they're all listening to a radio station at work and can't get up and change the channel, I could make them like almost anything. I have no payola money, however, that stuff is expensive...Multiculturalism, eh?So I'm guessing you don't care for Cowboy Troy's new song, "Hick Chicks?" Great blending of rap and country....I like it anyway. "Hey all you rednecks, Dixie Divas and you Southern belles..."

[bc]

Scenario for new artists: The CEO (C1) of a radio conglomerate is playing golf with the CEO (C2) of a large music distributing company; the latter says, "hey I've got some product (artists) I want to release, ramp up, and into your pipeline. They have a good product, packaging is on par, early testing has been favorable." C1 says, "run 'em by my people, we'll give them some rotation and we'll see if they float or sink."The music "magically" emanates from radios in various markets and if the phones don't ring, the songs sink, no matter who the artist is. The folks in the biz have been around long enough to have a pretty good idea of what a potential hit should sound like -- before they roll the dice. This is why Faith Hill, Tim McGraw sift through thousands of songs before cutting the Crème de la Crème. The market dictates what gets played over and over again. Occasionally the golf outing results in Kid Rock in the country rotation. They laugh and lick their wounds at the next outing. As for country music...BLUE WATER COUNTRYYou know I love Sweet Home Alabama, Texas two-step and anything TennesseeSo don’t cha get it wrong, when you hear this song Heck, it’s all country music to me.Don’t cha’ think you’ll find, north of that Dixie line, there’s a whole lotta down-home folk,And we like our country music laced, with a little bit a rock and roll.ChorusTo see the Northern Lights come out and dance all nightThere’s only one place you can go…Blue Water Country – ch-ch-chillout to a major degreeBlue Water Country – it’s all good up in the country Man I love the Grand ol’ Opry, the Ryman is a place to see.But I can recall Sunday morning radioand show called Renfro ValleyAnd there was Porter Wagner and young Dollyon the Wagon Wheel.Later on, it was Lightfoot and Seeger singin with a blue water country feel.ChorusBridge: Vancouver, Seattle, Chicago, Milwaukee -- and Green BayNew York, Detroit, Saginaw, Mackinaw…Soooo, Saint Marie!Well by now you might be getting my snowdrift don’t think I’ve left any doubt.I’m sayin’ it doesn’t matter,where you come from, people,to love what country music’s about.Look at all them snow birdsThey fly down to Nashville Sweatin’ bullets in their new cowboy hatsUp north we like to ch-ch-chillWith a country song’but we do it in our stocking capsChorus bgcole 2007

[jchitty]

Quote:Scenario for new artists: The CEO (C1) of a radio conglomerate is playing golf with the CEO (C2) of a large music distributing company; the latter says, "hey I've got some product (artists) I want to release, ramp up, and into your pipeline. They have a good product, packaging is on par, early testing has been favorable." C1 says, "run 'em by my people, we'll give them some rotation and we'll see if they float or sink."The music "magically" emanates from radios in various markets and if the phones don't ring, the songs sink, no matter who the artist is. The folks in the biz have been around long enough to have a pretty good idea of what a potential hit should sound like -- before they roll the dice. This is why Faith Hill, Tim McGraw sift through thousands of songs before cutting the Crème de la Crème. The market dictates what gets played over and over again. Occasionally the golf outing results in Kid Rock in the country rotation. They laugh and lick their wounds at the next outing. As for country music...BLUE WATER COUNTRYYou know I love Sweet Home Alabama, Texas two-step and anything TennesseeSo don’t cha get it wrong, when you hear this song Heck, it’s all country music to me.Don’t cha’ think you’ll find, north of that Dixie line, there’s a whole lotta down-home folk,And we like our country music laced, with a little bit a rock and roll.ChorusTo see the Northern Lights come out and dance all nightThere’s only one place you can go…Blue Water Country – ch-ch-chillout to a major degreeBlue Water Country – it’s all good up in the country Man I love the Grand ol’ Opry, the Ryman is a place to see.But I can recall Sunday morning radioand show called Renfro ValleyAnd there was Porter Wagner and young Dollyon the Wagon Wheel.Later on, it was Lightfoot and Seeger singin with a blue water country feel.ChorusBridge: Vancouver, Seattle, Chicago, Milwaukee -- and Green BayNew York, Detroit, Saginaw, Mackinaw…Soooo, Saint Marie!Well by now you might be getting my snowdrift don’t think I’ve left any doubt.I’m sayin’ it doesn’t matter,where you come from, people,to love what country music’s about.Look at all them snow birdsThey fly down to Nashville Sweatin’ bullets in their new cowboy hatsUp north we like to ch-ch-chillWith a country song’but we do it in our stocking capsChorus bgcole 2007Great points all around, BC. And man, the lyrics you've posted to your song here are killer as always. Nashville is a big tent...there's room for everyone. Quite honestly, I love traditional and neo-traditional country the best.....so jimmynashville and I have the same tastes most likely, but I've warmed to modern country over the past few years....and that is what the market seems to be demanding. There are times I think some (but not all) modern country is crap too, but who am I to dictate what folks listen to? It's a challenge to write for this new market as well.You can still find great traditional country music out there, music being put out by new country singers and groups.....it might not be all over the airwaves, and you have to do a little searching, but it's there, so there is something for everyone.

[jchitty]

Quote:It's funny that you mention "Picture". I've been thinking about posting a bunch of songs that would probably get rejected on the spot by a publisher or screener but were successful. That post would just be for fun, not to say people should expect to write songs like that and make it. New writers should always go with the odds in their favor especially when it's a million to one to start with.My guess is that a professional would say that the lyrics to "Picture" are not believable. These two people love each other so much that they sleep with everything else in sight? Now, maybe you could say that in the life style of a male star on the road, it might be plausible (regardless of your moral opinion)- that is frequently how they act. But add to it the woman who loves him so much she is also sleeping around? No chauvinism intended, but I don't think this reflects how (in general) people act. CaseyI hate to say it because I have great respect for Sheryl Crow's and Kid Rock's work, but "Picture" was just not a good song, imho, no matter what genre they tried to release it in. And as much as I like the Eagles, they have a new song out on CMT (even country radio stations are playing it) called "How Long."The Eagles have to be one of my all time favorite groups, but this song just isn't cutting it.